Welcome to another episode of Drinking with Robots. I'm your host Rob Nester and I'm your host Ingrid Folkers. On today's episode, we're throwing pinches of salt and knocking on wood. We're talking all about superstitions, numerology, and the number 13. A little later, Kelly Casey will stop by to tell us about how a love of wine led to her career behind the bar. Why San Antonio is so much better than Austin. And that sometimes you need to get the tattoo before you get the job. Hey Ingrid. Yes, Rob. Are you superstitious? Do you go in for any particular beliefs? You know, I've never been a really superstitious person. Yeah, I'm not really either. But you You know, this is the 13th episode of this season. And it seems like there was one thing after another when trying to get this episode done. Yeah, you're not kidding. Being that it's the 13th episode, what do you say we jump right in to a little bit of background and history on superstitions? Oh, and we should definitely talk about how it affects beliefs like numerology. Oh, and we can share a little history on why the number 13 always gets a bum rap. But first, a few words from our sponsor. Upgrade your cocktail game with Remedy Cocktail Company's handcrafted bitters. Order online at RemedyCocktailCompany.com and choose from over 20 flavors. Elevate your drink experience today. From seemingly minor things like not opening an umbrella indoors, to not walking under an open ladder. From not sweeping someone's feet with a broom, to throwing a pinch of spilt salt over your shoulder. From a heads up penny bringing good luck, to a groom not seeing the bride in her dress before the big day. Superstitions are woven into the fabric of almost all cultures. They definitely are. What's more, modern science suggests that the belief in superstitions may be directly woven into the psychology of the human mind. Okay, before we get too deep into the weeds here, let's maybe back up and set some guidelines about what we mean by superstitions. I mean, they're not the same as just random beliefs, right? Correct. Superstition is a word that has a number of meanings, depending on the context and time frame. For the purpose of this episode, we're going to define superstitions as something that connects cause and effect without scientific basis. Like the whole, if I walk under a ladder, I'll have bad luck belief? Exactly. While it's possible that something may occur, maybe a tool gets dropped or paint gets spilled, it's not your act of walking under the ladder that caused the tool to be dropped or the paint to be spilled. Furthermore, superstitions involve non-quantitative concepts like luck, fate, or the supernatural. Like dooming the fate of someone to never get married because you swept their feet with a broom? Precisely. Another example would be carrying a rabbit's foot for good luck. That didn't seem too lucky for the rabbit. No, but the belief does exemplify another aspect of superstitions. They are culturally transmitted and persistent. Well, I do remember learning about the superstition of a lucky rabbit's foot from my great aunt, so that checks out. We're going to have to talk about that, how that one came to be a thing, though. Finally, superstitions are irrational or unverifiable, but they feel emotionally valid. It's like how talk show host Stephen Colbert defined the concept of truthiness not as being true, but as feeling true. Yeah, that's it. It's something that doesn't really make any rational sense, but it provides comfort or feels right to the person who believes it. Like how I have a superstition that peanut butter and chocolate malted milkshakes cure bad days? I think that might just be the sugar affecting your brain chemistry there. Okay, okay, okay. Maybe you're right. I get it. It's like the idea of having to sit in a certain position or place because your favorite sports team won the last time you watched them and were doing that. Exactly. Behavioral scientists such as Jane Risen of the University of Chicago Booth in Illinois have used the so-called dual process model of cognition to explain our belief in superstitions. And what is the dual process model of cognition? According to Risen and others, humans possess the ability to think both fast and slow. Fast thinking is a model of thinking that is snappy and intuitive. Like when you're doing word association. Exactly. Your thoughts are snappy and intuitive. They're not edited, filtered, or refined. At least not at the conscious level. While the slow form of thinking is more rational, the main purpose of slow thinking is to serve as an override of fast thinking when it finds an error. But why wouldn't our brains detect and correct superstitious beliefs since they are unprovable? Well, Risen suggests that error detection doesn't automatically result in error correction. Basically, people can realize their belief is wrong, but still act on it. That makes sense because I have friends who continue to tell me that they love to drink Malört. But much like pretending to believe Malört's delicious, what is the purpose of believing something that you realize is incorrect? Researchers have a lot of theories about this. One theory proposes that superstitions can provide relief from anxiety. A 2018 article from the International Journal of Psychology and Behavioral Science suggests that superstitions has its roots early in human history when our ancestors lacked understanding of the forces and whims of the natural world. In this framework, the idea is that superstitions have evolved to produce a false sense of having control over outer conditions, thus reducing anxiety. I mean, I guess that makes sense. If you were an early human who didn't have a fullness of understanding of the workings of natural phenomena, or you were worried about getting eaten, I could see how you'd latch on to any beliefs that seem to offer a structure of understanding or protection. In addition to reducing anxiety, some authors, such as Stuart Weiss, the author of Believing in Magic, the Psychology of Superstition, believe that superstitions can give believers a psychological benefit that can improve skilled performance. So it's sort of like a placebo effect. In a sense, yes. A 2010 article from Psychological Science discussed a study that examined participants' performance in various physical and psychological endeavors and found that making gestures like crossing fingers or using certain phrases like break a leg or even a simple good luck boosted participants' performance. A 2014 study by behavioral scientists at the University of Chicago also suggests that when folks perform a physical action to avoid bad luck or harm, the ritual calms the mind. So it seems like all of these things are fairly low effort, though. I don't know that I'd even call good luck a superstition. I suppose that it is appealing to a concept, that of luck, that doesn't empirically exist, but feels like it does. But what harm does it do to wish someone luck, I suppose? It is interesting you say that. In his book, Stuart Weiss discusses the idea that oftentimes, once folks know that there's an applicable superstition for a situation, they don't want to tempt fate by not employing it. It's like why the idea of chain letters was a thing. The effort required to comply with the superstition, to mail the same letter to some number of people, was minimal enough when weighed against the potential of great reward. I feel like they always had some paragraph where they told a story along the lines of how Miss Irma McCullough, a lonely widow in Paducah, Kentucky, struck it rich mere moments after depositing the last of her letters in the mailbox. Or, conversely, how some poor soul who failed to comply met their unfortunate comeuppance after they failed to send out the requisite eight copies. That's a pretty good analogy, actually. Leading up to this episode, I found myself wondering if there are superstitions that seem to be common across cultures. And what did you find? Doing a little research, it seems like one of the most universal superstitions is the act of knocking on wood to ward off bad luck or bad fate. While this one can apparently be tracked back to Indo-European roots, it's become nearly universal these days. Kind of like breaking a mirror. While the number of years of bad luck that would ensue might differ, that one seems to have become widely adopted as well. And another common class of superstition is the fear or avoidance of certain numbers. One example of this that a lot of our listeners will be familiar with is how the number 13 is unlucky. But we'll talk more about that a little later in the show. For now, let's dive a little deeper into the world of numbers. More specifically, numerology. I'm not really too familiar with numerology, so you're going to have to enlighten both me and our listeners. So, numerology, or as it was known prior to the 20th century, arithmancy. Sounds like a wizard who's good at addition and subtraction. You're not wrong. Roll a d20 and give me a summation check. All joking aside, however, the term arithmancy comes from two Greek words. Arithmos, meaning number, and mentea, meaning divination. By the way, I don't speak Greek, so don't come at me if I've mispronounced these. As such, arithmancy means the study of divination through numbers. And at its core, numerology is the belief in a divine, mystical, or occult relationship between a number and some other coinciding event or quality. The term is often applied to the study of the numerical values of letters and words and names. So, how do numerologists get numerical values from names and words? They will typically use an alphanumeric system. For example, in the Latin alphabet, the one that most English speakers use, they may assign the number 1 to the letter A, 2 to the letter B, and so on. So, when they look at a name, they may add up the numbers corresponding to the letters it contains and perform some mathematical action on those to come up with some key numerical value to which they ascribe some meaning or context. Is that something that's a modern idea? The practice of doing this, assigning numerical values to words and names, also known as gematria, goes way back in history, and it also involves imputing the values with religious meaning. There's an 8th century BCE Assyrian inscription about how the wall of Khorsabod was decreed by Sargon II to be built to a length of 16,283 cubits long. Cubits? I seem to have misplaced my cubits to anything else converter. Okay, so that's approximately 24,500 feet or over four and a half miles long. And the reason it was decreed to be this length? Because apparently that value corresponded to the numerical value of his name. Imagine if his name had been Robb, would have been a lot shorter wall. So do all numerology traditions use an alphanumeric system? No. While there are a lot of numerology systems that use this approach, there are others that I wanted to mention. First is Pythagorean numerology. This system is built around interpreting the meaning of certain core numbers in your life. These are typically calculated from your birth date or name. What are these core numbers? The five core numbers in Pythagorean numerology are your life path number, your soul urge number, your expression number, your personality number, and your birthday number. In order to calculate these numbers, the letters of the alphabet are given a value of one through nine. So A is one, B is two, and so on with I being nine. Then J starts back at one, and the pattern continues. Okay, so how does the math work then? In Pythagorean numerology, to calculate the life path number, the main number in the system of numerology, you can kind of think about it as like your zodiac sign for this type of numerology. You add up the digits in your birthday until you're left with a single digit number. For example, take your birthday, January 10, 1980, to pull one out of thin air. So that's a one, a ten, and 1,980. So if we take all the numbers, one, plus one, plus zero, plus one, plus nine, plus eight, plus zero, that equals 20. We take two, plus zero, equals two. That person's life path number is a two. And what about the other numbers, the soul urge, the expression number? Those are calculated in similar fashion using other values such as your full name, or in the case of your birthday number, it's just the day of the month you were born. So there are 31 possible birthday numbers. Yep, and each is associated with unique traits. I'll make sure to link to more information on these numbers and their meanings for the Pythagorean numerological system in the show notes. Are there other numerological systems like Pythagorean numerology? The other system I want to mention is known as the Agrippan method, and it was invented by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa in the 16th century in his Three Books of Occult Philosophy. Oh, Heinrich was a bright guy. He was a German Renaissance polymath, physician, legal scholar, soldier, knight, theologian, and occult writer. We could probably do a whole episode on him alone, but his three books of occult philosophy deal with elemental, celestial, and intellectual magic. They cover topics such as astrology, the Kabbalah, itself a system of numerology that is used to interpret the numerical value of letters in Hebrew words and phrases as it believes these numbers reveal hidden meanings and connections within the universe, as well as numerology, angels, and the names of God. That's a lot of heavy topics, but it also highlights something similar to superstitions, a means to provide an orderly framework for experiences that we lack the ability to interpret. Very much so. I'd also imagine that it might have pushed people to adopt certain attributes if they were believers of it. I could imagine someone being told, Oh, you're a two. Twos have great problem-solving skills. Now suddenly they're working on those problem-solving skills because they should have them. Right? So how's the Agrippin model different from the Pythagorean? Seems like they're pretty similar. Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. The biggest difference is that the letter-to-number relationship is different between the two systems. You start in a similar fashion as the Pythagorean system, with A being 1, B being 2. But when you get up to K, instead of starting over at 1, you go 10 for K, 20 for L, etc. And then when you reach 90, you go to 100, 200, etc. With some special cases for the letters U, J, and W, which were not commonly considered part of the alphabet at the time Agrippa created the system. I've recently heard about so-called angel numbers. Are they similar to these numerological systems? Yeah, I've heard of angel numbers as well, mainly in the context of them being used for tattoos. I dug into them a little, and here's the takeaway. They were defined by Doreen Virtue and Lynette Brown in 2004. They consist of repeating digits like 111, 444, etc. Each has had many and varied numerological significances attached to them, and maybe most telling. In 2017, Doreen Virtue rejected her New Age beliefs, converted to Christianity, and in a 2024 interview declared that angel numbers were garbage, and that she regrets them, and that she's sorry she made them up. Well, that's not exactly a way to sell the idea, is it? No, it's definitely not. I guess numbers just scare some folks. Speaking of being afraid of numbers, you mentioned earlier how the avoidance of specific numbers is another common superstition. I know that there are a number... Is that pun intentional? I know that there are several numbers that are avoided as bad luck signs or omens. The number 4, for example, is avoided in some Asian countries, because in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean, the number sounds like the word for death. According to a 2007 article I read, people in China will pay higher fees to acquire phone numbers without the number 4 in them. And in Japan, the number 43 is avoided, especially when dealing with maternity wards, because the word for the number means stillbirth. And in Italian culture, the number 17 is avoided for a few reasons, including the fact that it was between 16 and 18, considered perfect representations of 4x4 and 3x6 quadrilaterals by followers of Pythagoras. It has also been suggested that Romans found the number 17 disturbing, because in Roman numerals, it is XVII. This is an anagram of B-I-X-I, meaning I have lived, with the connotation I am dead. That's just another reason why I hate Roman numerals. Numbers are numbers, and letters are letters. Well, perhaps no number is more steeped in superstition than the most seemingly unlucky of them all, the number 13. Yeah, I was always curious why the number 13 was such a bad omen, and there seemed to be no shortage of theories about why it's considered unlucky. One of the most well-known comes from the Last Supper. At this final meal of Jesus Christ, there were 13 people around the table, counting Christ and the 12 apostles. Some believe this was unlucky because of those 13, Judas was the betrayer of Jesus. This belief grew stronger in the late 19th century, with many English language sources relating 13's unluckiness to their tradition of Judas being the 13th to sit at the table. In a similar story, in Norse mythology, there was a feast in Valhalla where 12 of the gods were gathered, when Loki, the trickster god, arrives as the 13th guest and disrupts an otherwise peaceful gathering. Loki's disruption and actions led to the death of another god, Balder, a god of beauty and goodness, a significant moment of tragedy and loss. Another theory for why 13 is unlucky, which may also serve as an origin for the particular unluckiness of Friday the 13th, is that it was on Friday the 13th of October in 1307, when King Philip IV of France ordered the arrest of the Knights Templar, most of whom were tortured and killed. Well, it was definitely unlucky for the Knights Templar. I always get a kick out of how the number 13 pops up or is suppressed in pop culture. According to the Otis Elevator Company, for every building with a floor number 13, six other buildings pretend to not have one, and instead label what is architecturally their 13th floor, floor 14. Alternatively, some buildings give the 13th floor an alternative designation such as 12A or M, the 13th letter of the Latin alphabet, or close the 13th floor to public occupancy or access altogether. Another great example of avoiding 13 comes from Ireland. In Ireland, vehicle registration plates are such that the first two digits represent the year of registration of the vehicle. For example, 11 is a car registered in 2011, 12 is a car registered in 2012, and so on. In 2012, there were concerns among members of the Society of the Irish Motor Industry, SIMI, that the prospect of having 13 registered vehicles might discourage motorists from buying new cars because of superstition surrounding the number 13, and that car sales and the motor industry, which was already doing badly, would suffer as a result. The government, in consultation with SIMI, introduced a system whereby 2013 registered vehicles would have their registration plates age identifier string modified to read 131 for vehicles registered in the first six months, and 132 for those registered in the latter six months of the year. Luckily, some of our neighbors to the north have stopped buying into the bad luck potential of numbers. Vancouver, British Columbia city planners have banned the practice of skipping fours and 13s, since it could lead to mistakes by first responders, for example, going to the wrong floor. Well, with all this talk about superstition and the number 13, maybe we should take a moment and knock on wood to ensure that the rest of this episode goes smoothly. Stick around after the break when our guest Kelly Casey, an Austin, Texas-based event bartender and Pathfinder rep, drops by to talk about how a love of wine led her to her career behind the bar, why San Antonio is so much better than Austin, and that sometimes you need to get the tattoo before you get the job. Are you a professional bartender who thinks they have what it takes to defeat our AI challenger? If so, we'd love to talk to you. Reach out by sliding into our DMs. We're drinkingwithrobots on Instagram or email us at bookings at DrinkingWithRobots.com. Hey, you. Yeah, you. Listening right now. Do us a favor. Make sure you've subscribed wherever you're listening to this podcast at. And then while you're at it, hop over to Apple or Spotify or any of those kind of places and leave us a five-star review. If you leave us one, I'll make sure and read it on air. We just wanted to say thank you for listening so far. We'd love for you to connect with us on social media. You can find us at Drinking With Robots on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and Threads. While you're at it, go ahead and hit the subscribe button wherever you're listening to this podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. Also, check us out at DrinkingWithRobots.com. Thank you so much for sticking around after the break. Today, we have Kelly Casey, based out of Austin, Texas. She's an event bartender who also reps Pathfinder, our favorite hemp-based non-alcoholic Amaro. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. So tell us a little bit about how you got into bartending. So I initially worked with wine for a long time. I think I got the idea from working at Olive Garden. That was my second job ever. And from that, I met a bartender who worked at a cocktail bar down the street from the wine bar that I managed. He took me there one night, and they were setting drinks on fire. They were slamming daiquiris. They were drinking Weird Amaro's. And so I instantly was like, ooh, I want to learn how to do that. So after almost stalking them for like a year, the bar, not the person, they hired me as a bartender. And I think they had a lot of faith in me, and that kind of gave me confidence. And yeah, so I've been bartending since 2016, and with cocktail focus since about 2018. So those first couple of years, they were more just kind of like your volume bar kind of stuff? It was like college dive bar, wine, beer only, really no cocktail knowledge. Maybe I probably made a couple of terrible cosmopolitans and like snake bite shots. But yeah, nothing like heavy duty till early 2018. And what led to that shift? Were you looking to get more knowledge under your belt or looking to just kind of move into a little bit better, little nicer digs or what? San Antonio's got an amazing hospitality scene. That's where I'm from. And everyone there is like super close knit and challenges each other and takes a lot of pride in what they do. So I think I kind of just like wanted to keep up with the cool guys in the industry. And there are quite a few from San Antonio. And so it got to the point where I was like, you know what? I actually could really see this going long term. And I see them every day and they show up with their like pressed shirts and their cool bar guy tattoos. And yeah, I just fully immersed myself in that culture. Yeah, there's something about folks getting for net tattoos. Okay, calm down. It works. So on the topic of tattoos, do you have any cool bar tattoos now? Some super cool, some not so cool. I think my favorite is probably I, like some people you may know, love Angostura bitters. And so I got bitter tattooed on the back of my knee in the Angostura font. So that's probably my fave. And then when the Brooklynite closed, all of the remaining staff went and got matching coupe glasses. And with our little kind of nod to our favorite regular coupe or cooper. So we got a coupe for coupe. That's really cool. Yeah. I was going to say I have a feeling left out not having any bar tattoos. Well, you got to get some. There's still time. Yeah, there's always time. I would say my favorite is the Glenn Karen tattoo I have on the back of my neck. But I also have a fernet one because it was free at Tails last year. And now I have a tattoo. I have a Pathfinder bottle. And that was from after camp last year. They did a pop-up with the tattoo artist. And I was like, well, I can't not get the Pathfinder bottle. Right. That was before I had the job. So it was a little risky. Well, it all works out, right? I was going to say that's definitely something to show off in the interview, though. Please tell me you did. Oh, no. I was just like, you either have to hire me or I'm not sure. Or pay for a cover-up. Yes, exactly. They paid for the tattoo as well. So perfect. So you mentioned you're originally from Texas. You started your career in San Antonio. You're currently based in Austin. Yep. So just like an hour from San Antonio. Okay. So have you spent most of your life in Texas? Or have you gotten out and traveled a little bit around the country slash world? So 2021, I left Texas and moved to Colorado. Ooh. I was in Colorado for two years. And then I moved to Salt Lake City, Utah. That's where I was most recently. What was that like? Quirky in the best way. I think Salt Lake City has a reputation, especially like in the bar community. But I actually never been there before I moved there. And yeah, it was pleasantly surprising. Like there's a huge cocktail culture. There's a huge tattoo community. And actually like a really kind of like unexpected, large and like thriving queer community. So it's things that you don't necessarily associate with Utah. Yeah, it was awesome. I really enjoyed my experience. The industry there is amazing. They have some really talented bartenders and bar owners as well. Yeah, a friend of the show, Tyler Fernberg, was on season one. He's from Salt Lake City. The one thing. So, all right. You may be familiar with this, having spent some time there. I'm trying to remember what it's called. So you'll have to help me out here. But I remember Tyler mentioning that there's this really, really weird system that Utah has when it comes to liquor. Yes. So Utah, everything is regulated and monitored and tracked. So they have what's called the Berg system. All of your liquor bottles, when they come in, are patrolled by the state. They are required to be fitted with a magnetic pour spout that connects into an electronic system that controls how much liquor is dispensed and also tracks it. And then it's compared against your liquor sales. So the state pretty much has a hand in everything that you do as a bar. Also, we've got some really quirky rules there, like happy hour isn't a thing. Doubles don't exist. Most places operate until midnight or 1 a.m. And they have to sell food if they're selling alcohol, especially if they're a restaurant. So yeah, just a lot of quirky laws. But I will say it made me a very strong bartender. I feel like I could bartend anywhere in the country or possibly world if I'm getting ahead of myself. But yeah, it made me faster. It definitely makes you a little more creative because you have to rework some classic cocktail specs. Also, too, you can have like an ounce and a half of your base spirit, an ounce and a half of any other spirits. But they have to be considered a flavoring, even though it's alcohol. So yeah, there's a lot of hoops. My question was going to be when you brought up reworking the classics, if they're tracking how much you poured, do you have to dispense ounce and a half of the spirit every time? Or can you do split-based cocktails? How does that all work? So you can do split-based cocktails, but it still has to be within that two and a half ounces of alcohol maximum. Oof. So your classics, your old fashions, your martinis, your Negronis, all of that have to be reworked. So there is a little bit of wiggle room in there, but it's also very specific. And I'll be honest, the last time I bartended in Utah was New Year's Eve. And because it's not been in front of me every day, I might even be a little fuzzy. on some of those rules exactly. But yeah, no, it's a lot to consider. You definitely have to be on your game. Alcohol behind the bar is out the question, obviously. So yeah, no, it's a really quirky, interesting place to work. But I feel like if you can bartend in Utah, you can bartend anywhere. I get to just have fun with cocktails. I don't have to actually worry about the hassle of legalities. Can we drink behind the bar in North Carolina? Not in North Carolina. No. So sad. Technically, most states have laws against it, but it's whether they're strictly enforced or not. North Carolina, it's very strictly enforced. Texas is a little lax. Yeah. It just depends. Very lax, actually. Like Iowa, where I'm originally from, it's technically illegal, but not like illegal, illegal, you know? Right. Yeah, that's like Colorado. It's like, I loved Colorado, but it's just so laid back that it's like, it would be nothing to like, wait a minute or for your bartender to take a shot with their buddies and then come to you. And at first I was kind of like, huh, that's kind of weird. And I was like, actually, it's just the culture. Yeah. You know, like I'm not in a rush anyways. Exactly. But like in a really cool, just like Colorado laid back mountain town kind of vibe. You seem to really love Salt Lake City. Colorado just didn't click with you or was it just kind of like a... It was great. It's just so different from what I'm used to. I spent six months in Colorado Springs. Not for me. That's probably the nicest way I could put it. A lot of great industry folks there, but just a really interesting, boring place, in my opinion. Beautiful if you like nature. I will never say anything bad. Garden of the Gods, you know, Manitou Springs, Manitou Incline. Stunning. Beautiful. But just not my vibe. I was going to say, it's like hiking is really the thing to do up in that area, right? Yes. I would die. That for opportunities, amazing. And then I lived in a little ski town called Crested Butte, which is amazing. It's the wildflower capital of Colorado. The most beautiful, breathtaking views you've ever seen. And just real like salt of the earth people who value hard work, value respecting nature, value authenticity, just really kind of want to be left alone to enjoy nature. And work really hard and enjoy the fruits of their labor. So it was amazing, but it got really isolating. That's fair. The winters are longer. You know, Denver, I think the nearest major city was like three and a half hours away. So it was amazing. And I'm so grateful that I got to live there. But I think it takes a special type of person with like a really strong sense of self and like mental fortitude to be out there. And I had no family out there. So, you know, it's cool to have a community. It's cool to have people around you who know you. So that's why moving back home has been great. But no, Colorado definitely has a special place in my heart. Texas is a quirky place, but it is definitely home. So it's been really nice. Well, I was going to say, and being in, I imagine being in Austin is kind of like all the best things of Texas, maybe. San Antonio is definitely the best place in Texas, but Austin is a close second. She says not biased at all. No, not at all. Not trying to start any controversial arguments or anything like that. I was going to say that that's going to be the hot take that I put on the show teaser, you know. San Antonio, better than Austin. No, just kidding. Austin is close enough. We have had several Texas bartenders on this season, too. So Chandler and Des were both Texas bartenders, and we're happy to continue that trend. Yeah. I want to back up just one second, because you said you got started in wine. I mean, were you a sommelier, or were you just kind of like, I mean, did you do the training and all that kind of stuff? So I worked in a town called Grapevine, Texas, which is kind of known for wine. A little on the nose, maybe, but okay. Exactly. That's Texas for you. So that was my intro, and I got to work at two small wineries. And then I think what really kind of sparked that interest, for my 21st birthday, my family took me to Sonoma. And so, I mean, I definitely had like the dirty 6th Street, you know, experience. But the real birthday was wineries in Sonoma. And yeah, I just fell in love with it. And then I got to work for an amazing little independent wine bar in San Antonio. It was owned by a husband and wife. And they really just kind of gave me the freedom to learn about wine and to teach others about wine. And so I really found a lot of confidence in hospitality with wine. Do you like teaching people? Is that a thing that you enjoy? Oddly enough, I really enjoy public speaking. So yes, try not to sound vain. I do. I think that I am a very, I don't want to say difficult learner, but I learn in very specific ways. And so I think I appreciate when people take the time to explain things in a way that makes sense or that you can remember and retain information. So I do. It's definitely a part of my job that I love. I love teaching people about the world of spirits. And just there's so many different applications. There's so many different realms of that, so many different facets of this industry. So yeah, I do. I do enjoy teaching. So Pathfinder. Pathfinder. You went out on a limb, you got the tattoo before you got the job. I like that. But what was that? I mean, were you just like, oh yeah, sure, this will be fine? Or was it something you were like, oh, I want this? I think the first time I thought about it was the beginning of July. Tales of the Cocktail happened. It was my second time going to New Orleans during that week. And I got to work for some really cool brands and do some really fun activations and see a totally different side of the whole event. And so a job had been posted and I sent it to a few buddies of mine. Didn't really see myself being, I don't know if the right word is qualified, but I just wasn't sure if it was something that I should pursue or that I was even capable of doing. And then I got back from Tales and I think I was just super inspired by that whole week and was like, I'm going to go for it. I'm just going to put my hat in the running and see if I can make something happen with this. And from the first interview, I was like, okay, I want this. And I'm a very competitive person. I'm a Virgo. Shout out to Virgos. Hey. And yeah, so once I made my mind up, it was definitely like, okay, I like kept it close to me. I didn't tell very many people. And I was like, I'm just going to see what happens. And everything worked out for the best. And yeah, it brought me back home. That's an amazing story, first of all. And congratulations. I think you definitely deserve this. So, you know, I'm sure it's hard work and everything like that. But there was one thing I have to point out here. You're like, it's the Virgo in me. And then I get a shout out to Virgos over here. So wrapping it back around to our show here. Do you put much stock in your astrological sign there? Are you superstitious at all? Yes, I think more than anything, I like being right and correct. So, yes, absolutely. I think that's very on theme with Virgo's profile. And yeah, I'm an August Virgo. I'm a cusper, August 31st. See, it all makes sense. August Virgos. Now, playing devil's advocate a little bit, do you feel like these traits are something that was inherent within you prior to learning anything about your horoscope? Or do you think because you're a Virgo, you developed these perfectionist and competitive side because you've been told, oh, you're a Virgo, so you are these things? I'm going to say that it was written in the stars and I was born with it. I have been this way since I was a small, small child. My family has let me know with examples and stories. So, I'm pretty sure I've always been this way. That's fair. And it's just, yeah. I have to ask this question because I thought about this when we were doing the first part of the show and I didn't get around to really talking about it. But I'm going to ask both of you. Talking about superstitions, do you have any behind-the-bar or bar-specific superstitions that you're like, oh, let me tell you about this one? I do. I've definitely worked in some haunted bars, but I don't know about specific superstitions. I would love to hear yours, Ingrid. If I'm working the service well, you don't clear your tickets until the end of the night. Otherwise, you're going to get... I think others, both behind the bar and in the kitchen, will agree with me. That is one superstition that I think is prevalent. You don't clear your tickets until the end of the night. It's bad luck. There's that and then the whole full moon thing. That's definitely a big thing in the industry of people are just insane on the full moon. So we keep track of when that is. And that's when I staff my A-team. Those are the big ones that I feel like are pretty prevalent in the industry. So you mentioned you've worked in haunted bars. I'm curious what you mean by that. So the Brooklynite was definitely haunted. We all agreed that we saw the same ghost. It was a man in a hat. And then the first bar that I worked at in Salt Lake City, bless its heart, was just falling apart. And it was a lot of lights would just turn on randomly or you would hear noises when there was nobody in that space or that room. And then I've also worked at bars where bottles just fall off the shelf or like, you know, you'd come in and the Blantons would be tipped over. But just enough to where it's like not the full bottle emptied, but they wanted you to know, notice. So definitely some. And also San Antonio is an old town. One of the spaces I worked in was built in 1909 and had like a secret tunnel under it that went all over like the length of the whole downtown area. So who knows what kind of spirits were trapped in there. And then I worked at a hotel that's known for having ghosts. And the bar is actually called Haunt. So it's, they really lean into it. That's awesome. Now, do you believe in any type of numerology? Are you a numbers girl as well? I am. I have three numbers very close to my heart. Some considered unlucky, 13 being one of them. I'm also really big into palindromes. So I think that 13, 31, I was born the eighth month. That also ties into a lot of themes in my life. But yeah, I think I'm definitely superstitious in the best way. In the beginning of the show, we talked about some common superstitions around the world. And one of the ones that's very common is the idea of like number avoidance. And 13, obviously, in American culture especially, is one that most folks know. I find it interesting that different cultures latch on to different numbers and there's none that are like ubiquitous. It's like, that one becomes very kind of culturally specific. We talked about Italian culture. You know, instead of 13, it's 17. That's one that's real big. And I will say, I think it's kind of funny to then watch in like pop culture, how much it shows up, you know, and how it's kind of played and stuff like that. Yeah, I always think it's kind of interesting, especially how like Friday the 13th is a big thing, like the specific day, how that plays into that superstition of like, oh, if it's a Friday, then it's a big deal as opposed to Tuesday the 13th, you know? No one's ever like, oh God. It just doesn't feel like it carries the same weight, you know? And it's interesting to see that in American culture and that play out in the movies and TV shows and things like that. Yes, I know like a big thing that I've seen recently is like angel numbers. And I don't know that I have an angel number, but I feel like I definitely have like a darker number or like, you know, I don't know. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but a little more ominous. Yeah. I will say that I do see the same number often. Like I'll look at a clock and it'll say 444. And that's like kind of a strange thing that I've noticed throughout my life is I'll see that number a lot, but I don't know if it necessarily is trying to tell me anything good or bad, you know? It's just something that I've noticed is in my life. I would agree. I see the same numbers pop up constantly. I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing, but I don't gamble with the exception of craps. So I do have some lucky numbers when it comes to craps. If you've listened to the show at all, you'll pick up quickly on the fact that I am a skeptic on almost everything. With that said, my grandmother's birthday was the 23rd of February. My brother's birthday is the 23rd of February. My wife's birthday is the 23rd of February. We went on our first date on the 23rd of March. We were married on the 23rd of October. The first kitchen space that we had that was ours by ourselves was room 23. So that seems to pop up a lot, but you know. You have a Roman numeral 23 tattoo. See, it's funny though, because thinking about numbers and numerology, I've only seen numerology in person. Like I've seen a numerologist once in person. And ironically enough, it's the best friend of my father-in-law. And I had heard stories about this guy from my wife. Like as a child, she remembered him coming to visit for a weekend and staying for six months. He was always just kind of like one of those like, you know, vagabond type, you know, went wherever the wind took him, you know. And apparently Uncle Julian, as he was known, became a numerologist to the stars in LA for a period of time. And I think now, I think the last time we saw him, we were actually doing an event in the East Village in New York City. And he like popped in and he's like, oh yeah, I've been living in the Upper West Side. And you know, he was with whoever was paying for the place he was at, I'm pretty sure. But I watched him one time work a room and it was amazing to me because everybody, he would be like, oh, you know, what's your name? What's your birthday? You know, and he starts, okay, April 3rd. Cool, that's a four and that's a three. That's a seven. Seven's the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And then he goes to somebody else and he's like, okay, well, what's your name? And it's like, you know, name, birthday, you know. It's like, oh, it's February 5th. Well, that's a two and a five. And somehow, somehow, that didn't end up as seven, you know. So it was like, well, that's a two. And a two's the warrior and five's the poet. So you're like a warrior poet. It's like, wait, why didn't you just add those together like you did the last person? And I think that's what drives me crazy about it is it's like some of that kind of stuff just seems to be so arbitrary that it's like, are you just telling people what they want to hear or like placating a certain amount? So that's my only real exposure to numerology. And I use air quotes around that. But I'm always curious to see, like, I feel like somebody's going to write me or like come back at us and be like, you jolly don't know what it's really like. So I'm almost like somebody come at me and like show me something, you know. Educate us. Yeah, yeah. Maybe we'll get some takers. Yeah, we'll see. It does sound like your, was it uncle-in-law? Kind of. Well, I mean, it's technically, it's my father-in-law's best friend from boarding school. You know, it's like one of those kind of things. Sounds like he might be a grifter. Well, you know. Okay, so another Uncle Julian story. Apparently he was hanging out with my father-in-law and some other friends of theirs. And these guys are all in their 70s now, right? And one of them was talking about Social Security. And Julian was like, oh, I wonder what I would get for Social Security. And they were like, have you ever paid taxes? And he was like, oh, yeah, no. No. Maybe not. Well, maybe we don't base all of our judgment on numerology based off Uncle Julian. Maybe not. But he was the numerologist to the stars. Sure. Well, all right. So good luck, bad luck, no luck at all. We brought you in for this episode to see how you were going to fare against our AI competitor. So let's talk a quick minute about what our prompt was. The prompt was your challenge is to create a cocktail that channels the mystique and myth of the number 13. It must either feature 13 total components or play with the symbolism of unluckiness turned upside down. A drink that looks ominous, but drinks smooth or uses traditionally avoided ingredients in a beautiful way. Draw on numerology, folklore and occult symbolism. Maybe it's a twist on a classic that's been hexed. Maybe it's layered in 13 bittersweet secrets. Maybe it's a bold potion served with theatrical flair. The one hard rule, this drink must tempt fate. This is one of our longer prompts, but I definitely feel like it gave a lot of creative freedom for you. So I hope you enjoyed it. Go ahead and tell us about your cocktail. Yes. So my cocktail is Cloak and Mirrors. I definitely wanted to evoke the spirit of like the occult, mysticism. So with that, I have 13 different elements that come together to create Cloak and Mirrors. And a lot of the presentation ties into that as well. It's served on a mirror. And then also it's a very ominous looking cocktail with a really fun garnish. And the contrast between the blood red letters and the egg white, I think, are really fun. But yeah, we feature Pathfinder, which, as you know, is the opener of third eyes. Destroyer of Bad Vibes. You know, that is your solution for ennui and malaise. So that, I think, pairs really well with a coffee infusion, which I did for that spirit. And then I just adore agave and Pathfinder together. So we went with the Altos Blanco. And I've kind of been on a sherry kick lately. So we definitely have touches of the Pedro Jimenez and, you know, both from Lestal. And then I, if I could put Angostura bitters in every cocktail that I make, I would. So I did a combo of that with the Scrappy's chocolate, which are just chef's kiss perfect together. And then we balance it with a little citrus in the form of lemon, a little bit of salt to keep everything nice and balanced as far as like savory and our sweet elements. And then who doesn't love an egg white cocktail? And then going into the garnish and presentation, the glass itself is smoked. We've got a little clove and cinnamon in there. And then it is an egg white. So we're doing a dry shake and wet shake, double straining. And then once we get that beautiful, almost like midnight purple color profile, you have your egg white on top. And then I love using chili oil and cocktails as well. So we have a nice little three drop garnish. And then that kind of leads to your blood red 13 number garnish. And there's also, you know, your little occult candle on the side. And then, yeah, the beautiful Pathfinder and Alto's bottle in the background as well. It's very visual and it does invoke the kind of ominous nature of the number 13. For the AI cocktail, they named the cocktail the 13th hour. And for its concept, it said, in numerology, 13 is the number of upheaval, transformation through chaos. In tarot, death is the 13th card, not an end, but a powerful rebirth. This cocktail embraces that duality, a gothic potion of dark elegance and velvety danger. It looks ominous, nearly black, with a blood red glint, yet it drinks lush and smooth, revealing complexity with every sip. It also features 13 total components. So very similar to your cocktail where the vibes are ominous, 13 different components come together. We'll see what the AI chose to include. They did one ounce of apple brandy, three quarters ounce of Averna Amaro, half an ounce of Luxardo cherry liqueur, quarter ounce of Cokie di Torino, a bar spoon of Benedictine, a bar spoon of rich Demerara syrup, a dash of Peychaud's bitters, a dash of Angostura bitters, a dash of black walnut bitters, a dash of orange bitters, two drops of absinthe, a flamed orange peel expressed over the top, and then a Luxardo cherry skewered with a star anise pod as a garnish. So the presentation for that would be a stirred down cocktail served in a Nicanor glass with that flamed orange peel expressed over the glass but discarded, and then the cocktail pick holding the Luxardo cherry in the star anise pod. Sounds tasty. We'll see what the judge says. As we talk about on almost every episode, we have three buckets of points. The breakdown on that is we have a potential 50 points for taste because after all these are cocktails, we're drinking them, you know, that is the most important part. We do an additional 30 points for presentation because although we love drinking these, we like something that looks pretty, and then we have an additional 20 points for originality, and you know, it's rare that we see stuff that's just brand spanking new, but we do like to see something that's a little different than the day-to-day. The judge sees a lot of cocktails, so you know, anytime you have something that's different, you know, that's always a fun little thing. So we're going to break down the score here. Kelly, for taste, potential 50 points, you scored 32. The AI scored 44. Pretty strong showing out of the gate there. Presentation, you scored 27 because it was a really nice looking cocktail. AI, not quite up to snuff there. They got a 25, and for originality, 17 points out of a potential 20 for you, 16 for AI. So the math works out at 76 points for you and 85 points for the AI competitor. I'm so sorry. It must have been some bad luck. I think it must have been. It's always sad to see the human lose to the AI, but we do appreciate you putting your heart and soul and numerology experience into this cocktail. I think you did really embody the ominous nature of the number, and unfortunately, AI just... Had a slightly stronger, based on taste, and I want to throw this out there because the judge always likes to give some notes, feedback, things like that. The AI's cocktail, they noted that it was highly drinkable, very complex, and very smooth. And there was a comment that we talked about in the bartender to bartender segment that I think is going to come back in just a second. For your cocktail, they did mention that it was more savory than they expected in some ways. They said it was very pleasant, but that it was a little bland on the finish until they mixed the chili oil in. The first couple of sips, you know, didn't catch the chili oil. So that may have been the thing that got you right there on just that taste component. You made a comment in the bartender to bartender segment about Manhattans and Black Manhattans specifically. The AI cocktail kind of drinks a little bit like a Black Manhattan. People love them. When you made that comment, I was just kind of like, hmm, interesting. Yeah. And I wonder if that might have been your bad luck there. It is, and it's interesting that you mentioned that it favors the savory side. I have a very sweet palate, and so that's why I was very intentional with using the Pedro Jimenez as my sweet element. I didn't want to overdo it. But, no, yeah, I take all that feedback, definitely. Regardless, it still sounds like a delicious cocktail. I didn't have the pleasure of getting to try it like the judge, but. Well, I did, and it was good. So, I mean, you know. On paper, it reads great. I was like, that was my nightcap. It was perfect. It was everything I wanted. I'm very particular about egg white cocktails. And so, yeah, that was money. Well, Kelly, we want to say thank you so much for joining us on this episode. If our listeners want to keep up with you, how can they do that? Yeah, thank you so much for having me. My Instagram handle is spiritedawaytx. Well, awesome. Thank you so much. Well, with that, that's us signing off saying drink well. Be well. Keep it quirky. And don't be afraid to make it weird. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode.