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Many of us have experienced the aftermath of one or more nights of alcohol-fueled excess. But what if there was a way to still enjoy delicious flavors without the side effects of too much alcohol? In this episode, we're going to talk about the sober, curious, and mindful mixology movements to learn more. Ian Murray, bartender at Raleigh's Own Foundation, we'll be stopping by a little later to talk to us about getting sober, how he approaches cocktails without spirits, and his love of all things racing. But first, a word from our sponsor. Upgrade your cocktail game with Remedy Cocktail Company's handcrafted bitters. Order online at RemedyCocktailCompany.com and choose from over 20 flavors. Elevate your drink experience today. All right, folks, let's kick things off by dissecting this enigmatic term, sober curious. If you're picturing a teetotaler squinting suspiciously at a bottle of Cabernet, you may not be entirely off track, but there's a lot more to it. This isn't just some cute buzzword that's floating around Twitter or X or whatever it's called this week. It's really a full blown cultural movement. Ruby Warrington brought the term into the mainstream with her 2018 book, sober curious. But let's be clear, questioning the role of alcohol in society isn't a new idea. The temperance movement of the 19th and early 20th centuries aimed to promote sobriety. Sober curious builds on this foundation, but modernizes it for our live and let live era. You see, being sober curious is like taking a philosophical stroll through your own habits. It's essentially the Socratic method applied to your bar tab. Instead of blindly diving into the booze ocean every Friday night or Wednesday morning, you're pausing at the shoreline, maybe dipping a toe in, maybe not. Now let's clear the air about one thing. Being sober curious is not the same thing as being in recovery for alcoholism. That is a very separate and critically important journey. Sober curiosity is about questioning your drinking habits and intentions, even if you don't consider them problematic. So why the sudden allure? Why are people flocking to this mindset like moths to a flame or perhaps more fittingly like thirsty folks to a water cooler? Well, it turns out that questioning your relationship with alcohol brings forth a cascade of benefits. First and foremost, the mental clarity. Imagine your brain throwing off its groggy blanket and greeting the morning sun all while singing a happy tune. That's your brain on sober curiosity. And let's not forget the social element. How many times have you found yourself leaning on alcohol as a social crutch? Oh, I don't know anyone at this party. Let me grab a drink to make it less awkward. Sound familiar? Being sober curious helps you face these situations head on, redefining social boundaries and expectations. You're not the life of the party because you're tipsy. You're the life of the party because you're genuinely engaged. And yes, you're allowed to still enjoy alcohol. The curious and sober curious opens the door for a more nuanced relationship with our liquid friend. Think of it as dating around before committing to the drink in front of you. You're giving yourself the freedom to choose rather than being anchored to societal expectations. All right. Now that we've broached the idea of being sober curious, let's talk about a natural extension of this. Mindful mixology. If the sober curious movement is a thoughtful contemplation of your relationship with alcohol. Mindful mixology is focused on the craft of creating drinks without using spirits. It's not about replicating the taste of alcohol, but about celebrating the complexity of flavors you can achieve without it. As author Derek Brown discusses in his 2022 book, Mindful Mixology, cocktails aren't just those drinks with alcohol. In his view, a cocktail is any sophisticated, flavorful adult drink. And mindful mixology is where the bartender becomes more like a bar chef, turning the spot, turning the spotlight on ingredients that often hide in the shadow of their alcoholic counterparts. We're talking unique infusions, house-made syrups, exotic spices, and yes, even vegetables. Ever had a carrot cocktail? If you haven't, you're missing out on a full-on flavor bomb. The absence of alcohol allows each ingredient to sing it solo without being overshadowed. Now, for those skeptics among you who are thinking, why would I pay cocktail prices for something without booze? Let me throw some facts your way. First, these are no mere juice blends. The layers of complexity and a mindful mixology drink can outshine many of their boozy brethren. It's about elevating the non-alcoholic drinking experience to the same level of complexity and enjoyment as traditional cocktails. Second, the artistry involved is worth the price tag. Just as you'd pay a premium for a chef's tasting menu, these crafted alcohol-free cocktails warrant their place on the menu and, yes, the charge on your credit card. Consider it an investment in flavor discovery and, quite frankly, in challenging your own perceptions. And let's not skip over the rise of non-alcoholic spirits hitting the market. Brands like Seedlip, Ritual, and Liar are making waves and they're not just for teetotalers. They're for those who seek out a different yet still elevated experience. Consider it like Netflix for drinking. There's something for everyone. So, why does any of this matter? I mean, you've decided to give sober curious or mindful mixology a whirl. Big deal, right? Actually, it's a huge deal and here's why. Let's take it from the top. Social norms. Yes, those lovely unwritten rules that dictate we toast champagne at weddings and guzzle beer at sporting events. The sober curious and mindful mixology movements are challenging these norms and rewriting the script. No longer do you have to scramble for excuses or fake a smile while sipping a soda at a bar. You don't have to feel like you're not part of the "in" crowd if you're out and about and not consuming alcohol. And then there's the emotional well-being angle. Let's face it, the whole "drowning your sorrows" tactic is as outdated as a fax machine. More people are recognizing that alcohol can be an emotional fog machine, obscuring your feelings rather than enhancing them. Taking a more mindful approach offers the clarity of a high-definition emotional lens. You're more in tune with yourself and as an added bonus, you remember everything clearly the next morning. And the ripple effects don't stop there. We're seeing a shift in the hospitality industry as well. Bars and restaurants are upping their alcohol-free cocktail game. I mean, it's almost become a matter of pride. If you can create a killer cocktail without alcohol, it says a lot about your establishment's attention to detail and diversity in offerings. But the cherry on top has got to be the effect on productivity. No hangovers mean you're on your A-game more often. Fewer sick days, more focus, and an uptick in creativity. It's like your life suddenly turns from standard definition to 4k resolution, all because you decided to be a bit more mindful of your drinking habits. Okay folks, it's time to put on our lab coats and safety goggles, because we're going to dive into some of the scientific nitty-gritty behind the sober curious and mindful mixology movements. Don't worry, I promise to keep the jargon to a minimum. You know how every action has a reaction, right? Newton wasn't talking about cocktails, but the principle still applies. When we consume alcohol, it impacts our neurochemistry. We're talking dopamine, serotonin, and let's not forget our frenemy, cortisol, the stress hormone. Alcohol can mess with this biochemical symphony in ways that range from temporary euphoria

to long-term mood swings. Now, let's get to the good stuff: 9:11

endorphins. These are your body's feel-good chemicals, naturally produced during activities like exercise or eating chocolate. Studies have shown that being mindful about our consumption, be it food or drink, can lead to an increase in endorphin levels. It's like hacking your happiness without the chemical additives. And while we're playing the scientist, let's touch on gut health. Fermented non-alcoholic beverages like kombucha are rich in probiotics, which are excellent for your digestive system. I mean, who knew that mindful mixology could be good for your gut too. But it's not all about chemicals and hormones. There's also the psychology of choice. When you consciously opt for an alcohol-free cocktail over a boozy beverage, it shifts your perception of control. It's empowering and plays a role in shaping your self-image. It's behavioral science at its sippable best. For more information on the impact of alcohol on body and brain, I'd highly recommend

Adam Rogers' excellent book, Proof: 10:19

The Science of Booze, which dives into the science behind alcohol and its effects on the body. So here's where it gets juicy, figuratively and literally. No self-respecting exploration of a movement is complete without talking dollar signs. So let's dig into the economics of sober curious and mindful mixology. First up, consumer spending. Have you ever stopped to think about how much you spend on booze? According to a study by one poll, the average American spends about $448 per year just on drinks they consume at bars. Switching to alcohol-free or low-alcohol content options, which are often cheaper, is like giving yourself a mini-annual raise. Now let's zoom out and talk about the market size. The non-alcoholic beverage market is on fire. According to Grandview Research, the global non-alcoholic drinks market size was valued at approximately $967.3 billion in 2016 and is expected to grow over the coming years. We're talking exponential growth. And let's not overlook job creation. The rise of the sober curious and mindful mixology movements has led to a surge in demand for skilled mixologists, researchers, and even consultants who specialize in non-alcoholic concoctions. It's an entirely new career field emerging from the mist of atomized cucumber water and smoky tea infusions. But we've got to address the elephant in the room. Taxes. Alcohol taxes contribute a hefty sum to government coffers. Could the rise of these movements put a dent in that? Possibly. But consider the reduction in health care costs related to alcohol consumption. Everything from liver disease to road accidents. In the long run, the economic benefits could outweigh the losses. Well, folks, we've been on quite the intellectual pub crawl today, haven't we? From the introspective avenues of why people are turning sober curious, to the bustling marketplace of mindful mixology. We've covered a lot of ground. And remember, you don't need alcohol to have a spirited discussion, as we've hopefully proven today. We've explored how shaking up a non-alcoholic cocktail can be just as joy-inducing as its boozy counterpart. We've seen how science backs the benefits of mindful drinking. How our brains and bodies thank us when we opt for a spritz of cucumber water over a splash of gin. And let's not forget the economics. Our wallets are silently nodding in approval. It's easy to think that this movement is a flash in the pan, another millennial or Gen Z trend soon to be overtaken by the next big thing. But as we've discussed, the underpinnings are far more substantial, be it biochemistry, psychology, or pure economics. So the next time you find yourself pondering what to pour into your glass, remember that the world of non-alcoholic beverages is rich, fascinating, and dare I say intoxicating in its own right. Whether you're sober curious, mindful in your mixology, or just up for a new experience, the landscape is as diverse as it is delicious. For this episode's challenge, our contestants will be seeing which one of them can create a drink that not only tantalizes the taste buds, but also captivates the imagination. The drink should evoke a sense of well-being, mindfulness, and sophistication, all while being entirely alcohol-free. So stick around after the break when we sit down with our guest, Ian Murray of Raleigh, North Carolina's foundation. A little later, we'll see how he fares when he has to go head-to-head with our AI contender. Will he claim victory, or will his AI competitor take the checkered flag? Stick around to find out. I want to take a moment and say thank you for listening so far. I'd love it if you'd connect with the podcast on social media. We're Drinking With Robots on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Threads. And we definitely appreciate your likes and follows. Make sure to hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening to our podcast on, so you don't miss any episodes. Also, check out DrinkingWithRobots.com while you're at it. Hey folks, we're here today with our good friend Ian Murray from Foundation, where he's a bartender. You can find him behind the bar slinging drinks on a regular basis. Ian, thanks for being with us. Yeah, man. So, you know, as we talked about in the first part of the show, we're talking about the sober curious movement, mindful mixology movement. There's a few different terms, you know, all kind of predicated on not needing alcohol to have a, as the author of mindful mixology calls it, a sophisticated adult drink. That's something I think you can kind of speak to. Yeah. I mean, I know recently you did the NCLRA and prepared both a mocktail and cocktail for that competition and came in second place. So congratulations on that. Talk to us about kind of your background with the idea of this sober curious mindful mixology thing. Have a little familiarity with it. Yes. I mean, you know, I drank enough for all of us for a long time. As happens in the industry. Yeah. So I got sober and it just so happened that around the same time, like a lot of people were getting sober, I feel like. So, I mean, we keep a whole menu of, you know, mocktails on our list at Foundation. I think it's even for people that imbibe still like just blending in a booze-free cocktail while you're drinking another cocktail in between. It keeps you being able to drink more through the night. Yeah. So that's one thing I think is interesting that I was reading about. The idea of like sober curious or mindful mixology or whatever you want to call this doesn't mean that you can't have spirits. It's just, I think maybe taking a more considered approach to it so that you're not a constantly drinking spirits, but also not constantly downing cocktails every evening or while you're out. Yeah. I mean, it's good to know your limits too. Like if you want to have a couple of drinks and then have a couple of spirit-free drinks because you got to drive home or, you know, you just want to be with it. You know, like you're not getting judged at our bar for having spirit-free drinks. If anything, we're embracing it. So it's not just for the people that are sober. Like we get plenty of people that go spirit drink, non-spirited drink, spirit drink, non-spirited drink. So it's well, well-versed right now. Well, see, and I think that's awesome too, because I feel like there are times where, you know, you're out with friends, you know, you're having an evening of it and, you know, maybe you're not quite ready to bail and go home, but you know, you also don't want to get sloppy. You don't want to have to worry about the drive. Exactly those reasons. And you can continue to hang out and, you know, enjoy the company of others without having to be like, all right, let's do another old fashioned. Yeah. It gets exhausting. I mean, going back to something that you were talking about with the approach that you guys put just as much effort into all of the spirit-free cocktails that you do. I was going to ask, do you feel like, because rightly or wrongly, I feel like a lot of cocktail bars kind of fall into this. Well, this is our old fashioned riff. This is our Manhattan riff. This is our martini riff. This is our whatever riff. Do you feel like doing the spirit-free cocktails give you more latitude to work in or is it something you really think about in that sense? It's almost like you kind of got to approach it a different way. You know, for a long time, I think when people were putting mocktails on their menu to start off with at the early stages of people putting mocktails on their menu, it was always with soda water. It was always kind of like an afterthought. It was always just like juices and soda water. Yeah. And that's what I remember seeing a lot too. It was like, hey, here's a mixture of three different juices and some sparkling water. And oh, we put a decorative flower on the top. Yeah. I think the big part now is a lot of spirit-free, zero-proof spirits coming out like that Ritual or Kentucky 57 or any of, you know, Seedlip, all these brands. You can get a zero-proof Negroni. I mean, like that is pretty insane. Yeah. I thought that was really interesting because I've seen similar ideas, right? It's like you've got something to replace the Campari. You've got something to replace, you know, the gin. So here you go. And I think that's phenomenal. My exposure to the zero-proof spirits has been fairly limited. And in fact, you have to say, and we'll cover this a little later, but thank you for introducing me to two different brands. Yeah. The critique that I've heard from others, and maybe you can speak to this, is some of these do, we'll call it varying levels of good jobs at replicating the spirits they're trying to suggest. Yeah. Yeah. But one of the things that I heard was that, you know, stop thinking of them as that spirit and think of them as just an ingredient. For me, I just kind of look at them as like their own entity. I'm not like, this is a zero-proof gin or this is a zero-proof whiskey. I mean, you're not going to take ritual zero-proof whiskey and like sip it neat and think it's going to taste like, you know, Elmer T. Lee. Zero comparison. I think the main thing is it's a substitution for people like myself that, you know, it tickles that itch for me that it's like, hey, I'm going to have a drink with these folks. I might not drink it neat, but it definitely tastes good and old-fashioned. Or, you know, you can manipulate these spirits to taste really good with other zero-proof things or just really cool cordials or shrubs or, you know, there's so many possibilities to it. Yeah. I think that's one thing because you don't get to rely on the spirit. It makes you kind of explore the other things like cordials, like shrubs. You know, I was kind of impressed looking through the Mindful Mixology book that I keep referencing by Derek Brown. His approach is really interesting because he starts from this idea that a non-spirit cocktail is not a lesser cocktail, which I think is really important because it goes back to what you're talking about. Like, you know, initially it was just like, here's some juices and some, you know, some club soda or sparkling water. And he operates from a very different viewpoint, which I think is more in line with like what you're talking about, like what you guys do at foundation, which is, no, this is a great sophisticated drink for an adult. It just happens to have zero ABV. Yeah, exactly. It's still a cocktail. You know what I mean? We're still charging people, you know, 13 bucks for it or whatever. You know, it's still, we're still putting the same amount of effort in the building process as we would in any of the drinks that we have on there that have booze in them. So. You know, that brings up a question. Do you ever find that you have customers that order a spirit free cocktail and then want to argue about the pricing? I mean, people are, people are arguing about the pricing all the time anyway, you know? So we haven't had anybody be so brass about it. You know, people will argue the whiskey prices all the time, but we don't, we haven't really had anybody that I know of, at least to our face. No, no, no, no. I'm always curious because looking at what the zero proof spirits price wise, they're expensive, dude. I would just say they seem to model like almost like a mid shelf spirit price wise. 30 to 40 to 50 bucks. I mean, there's stuff out there that gets pricey for sure. Yeah. And I wonder if as you kind of pass through, so, okay, you know, use whatever bar you're working at, picks that product up. It automatically kind of necessitates a similar pricing as a spirited cocktail. Yeah. Especially when you look at, you're potentially doing more prep work for those. If you're making custom, you know, specific shrubs or specific cordials or, you know, whatever you may be doing. I mean, we do the same markup that we would do on any other cocktails. So, I mean, it kind of equals out. They're blended in the menu. Like they're all the same prices, basically. They're the same as one of our spirited cocktails would be, you know, 12 to 15 bucks. So, I will say that it doesn't seem like the super curious movement necessarily is going to save you a lot of money going out. No, no, no, no. But, you know, at least with the spirited cocktails, you might forget how much you paid for them versus. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. You won't regret it at the end of the night. Yeah, exactly. Checking your bank account in the morning. Yep. So, one of my favorite things to do is, you know, when folks are behind the bar, I'd love to find out if they've had any experience working with AI or anything like that prior to coming on to the show. How about you? Do you guys use any kind of fancy technology over there at Foundation or is it just good old-fashioned bartending? Very old school. Yeah, very old school. Like I don't really know anything about AI. All the ChatGPT stuff, I've never used it. I mean, just we always joke about it, but. Yeah. So, I'm curious, does it ever come up in the context of creating cocktails or? Not until I heard your podcast. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm always curious because like you said, you know, some guests have said, well, yeah, you know, I've used it for helping me figure out a name for a cocktail or, you know, found out like what would pair well with a certain ingredient. As far as I can recall, I don't think anybody has been like, yep, I definitely use it to scaffold out a cocktail. They probably won't call themselves out, you know what I mean? Well, you know, so like you said, we had Greg Benson on the last episode and he's doing this whole thing where he's challenging ChatGPT to come up with a cocktail, but it's much more like closed, you know, like, hey, make me a cocktail using X ingredient and Y ingredient. Oh, I see. And so we actually make it more open ended, like make me a cocktail that X, you know, and it's more like a feeling or, you know, a encapsulation of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. So it was interesting seeing like the different results that we got versus like what somebody like Greg had seen. And it feels like the AI does better with that open ended prompt. Sometimes they're trying to squeeze like two ingredients together and make a cocktail. You hear like people joke for years about like, oh, you know, robots are going to take your job one day. So, I mean, I don't think that'll ever happen. I think we're creative folks. Like, I feel like I hope that most people beat the robot every day. You know what I mean? I would assume they do. I mean, you're putting like a lot of like the robot doesn't know, like, I mean, who knows? Maybe I could be wrong. I don't know. Well, yeah. So you were hearing to say robot doesn't like flavors and stuff like that. But I mean, who the hell knows? Well, so that's the interesting thing, right? So I think I talked about this in a previous episode, but things like ChatGPT, what they actually have are just huge corpuses of text and they have an algorithm that helps them to process that into a set of data. So if you think about it, you haven't learned to make all of your cocktails purely through experiential stimulus, right? You've read, you've researched, you think. So think about how much that's informed your cocktail making. ChatGPT technically has that same capacity. That's like book smart. Right. And so that's one thing that is interesting is it does seem to have a pretty good handle on like flavor affinity. So if you give it, you know, X, it knows that that, you know, has a strong affinity for why it can do that. The part that I've really seen it fall down on is the subtle thing. Yeah. Where you really needed taste buds to know that the interaction is not what you would imagine it to be. Like the case I give a lot of folks is we had an episode with Ben Robbins who was at old Raleigh at the time. Yeah. The AI and Ben basically came up with the exact same cocktail. I mean, it was. That's wild. That is wild. Yeah. Well, it's based on a drive-in movie theater. Ah. And they both did a bourbon-based cocktail popcorn simple syrup. Just randomly. Yeah. Holy shit. Because it was like make a cocktail that encapsulates the experience of going to a drive-in movie theater. So it was bourbon-based popcorn simple syrup. Both of them used chocolate bitters. They both used, they both used cola. Ben's topped it off with cola. Whereas the AI spec to do a cola reduction. And I think what happened was that it assumed that it would get sweeter. Right. Because usually when you reduce down, you intensify flavor. Yeah. But when you reduce cola, you actually end up with more herbal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You may know that experientially. Yeah. We make a cola syrup foundation. Right. So it doesn't get any sweeter. It actually loses some of the sweetness. Right. Uh, and so it added lemon juice thinking to counter, I think to counter the sweetness. Added some acidity to it. Right. But that failed because it didn't actually need it. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was like... All corn and lemon juice kind of sound gross anyway. Well, yeah. But you know what I mean? It was like just that subtle difference. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a case where had it had lips, it would have known. So wild. But everything else was like on point for that cocktail. And like you said, we see that sometimes where a bartender brings a really strong cocktail. Like, you know, it's a bit like super solid. And then we'll have it get beat. The robots won. The robots won for sure. Yeah. Damn. I didn't. Yeah. I see. I didn't. I didn't know that. Oh, we've had a couple of victories. I don't want to get smoked by the robot. Like you said, it's interesting, right? Because like, and it goes back to this idea of like, you know, talking to folks behind the bar and there is, it's a craft. I mean, there's an artistry to it. It's craft. It's a working class job. I mean, you know, no, I mean, but yeah, but I mean, it's, it's like a craftsman, craftsman job. Yes. Yes. I 100% agree with that. Yeah. There's a artisanry to it. Yeah. With that said, I've had a couple of folks, I think come into this thinking, ah, this is not going to move. They're not going to be able to, you know, try. Yeah. And I think they kind of walked away going, shit. Okay. That's kind of why I like brought a drink of R putting on the next menu, a foundation, a version of this drink. And it's like already been kind of like, I didn't want to lose man. So it's already been kind of like R and D, you know, hopefully I don't eat my words here. Well, I was going to say, and you know, generally we try and give at least a week, you know, for cocktail creation. So you were able to shorten that timeframe cause you had something in mind anyway, which was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I just have moleskins and moleskins and moleskins full of recipes I've written over the years too. So I usually just try to like go back in and just find something with that, you know? So talk to me about that. Cause that's something we haven't really discussed a lot on the show. And I, and I'm always curious, like when you're in this professionally, are you kind of constantly thinking about the next cocktail you can make and not necessarily the next sequentially, but like that, you know, as an idea of like, oh, there's a thing I want to do. Absolutely. Yeah. Cause I feel like it's almost, it's going to sound kind of funny. It's almost like writing comedy, right? Like if you talk to like a standup comedian, like a working standup comedian, they all talk about they've got their notebook, right? And it's got everything in it. Do you take that same approach kind of? Yeah, dude. Like, I, I mean, I have just notebooks going back until I think like 2012. Like Billy Mellon owns man. Last time I saw him, he handed me one of my notebooks. I left there eight years ago or something that has recipes back in like 2012, 2013, 2014. And I mean, I have, I I'm just constantly writing shit down. I mean, even if it's just a name for a drink or if it's like something I see on like just random TV, like I'm just writing stuff down for ideas might not even come to fruition, but I just, I always need inspiration. You're just pulling inspiration from everything. So that's kind of how all the menus are written. Any menu that I've been a part of is just constantly writing stuff down and then collaborating with like, you know, four other people that you work with. And so when you're proofing a cocktail out for whether or not it gets on the menu, does everyone have to vote for it in that four group or is it majority rule or is there just the occasional like, no, this is definitely going on or it depends, you know, like I've worked in places where it's like a dictatorship. I've worked in places where it's just me writing it or just me and one other person writing it. I've worked in places where everyone gets a trophy. I've worked in places, you know, I think we all kind of help each foundation. We all help each other do it. You know what I mean? So like, I think we also all trust each other. Then we take, we taste, we have a meeting and we taste each other's drinks. And you know, most of the time those drinks are pretty much are indeed by that point because we've all been working together, making them for each other through the shifts or making them for guests. So by the time they actually go into like a menu meeting, like where we're about to write the menu, they're, they're all worked. The kinks are all worked out. Usually there's not necessarily a voting system. I mean, I've been in places where it's like that. I mean, we try to keep like the, like competition, you know, not, not like not trying to have like a competition inside the bar. So if you have an idea for a drink, you kind of just like, yo, I got this going on. And then, you know, Kyle might be like, oh, I have this going on. And then Patty might have something different. Rance might have something different. Like, so like we all try to like go in different directions. So we don't have all like, you know, 10 of the same cocktail on the menu, but that makes sense. Yeah. It's all, I mean, it's all written down. We all have our notebooks, every single person. Well, the reason I was curious about deciding what gets on the menu is one of the things that I heard, I'm trying to remember where this came up in conversation, but whatever room it was, they were like, the majority have to love it. And at least one person has to hate it. That was like their, that was their minimum requirement. If everybody loved it, it didn't go on the menu. Yeah. That was their like, that's funny, you know, approach to it was, you know, at least one person has to hate it. Well, I mean, we all have different styles of drinks that we like, obviously. So, I mean, it's kind of funny. You can pick out like, if you know us well enough, you can kind of pick out like, oh, that's Ian's drink. Oh, that's Kyle's drink. You know what I mean? Like you can kind of tell like stylistically, like what kind of drinks we make. So if you don't like stirred, bitter, boozy drinks, nine times out of 10, you're not going to like my drinks. You know what I mean? But like, you know, sometimes we have some people that make like really like tiki, like, you know, floral, like, you know, like rum cocktails of people that make, you know, close to classics. Like, you know, it's, you know, cocktails are all about the balance. As long as you're balancing the flavors out well, like it's not a bad, it's not going to be technically a bad drink. You know what I mean? So somebody is not going to like that drink. Obviously. Sure. We all have different tastes. Yeah. I mean, someone's going to resonate with you or it's not, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So in a previous episode, we had Ingrid Folkers from Whiskey Kitchen on and the subject of cocktail competitions came up and she's done a number of them as of late. You've done a number over the years. And one of the questions that I posed to her, and I'm curious to get your input on this is, do you put yourself in a different headspace, creating a cocktail for a competition versus something that's going to live on your menu? I mean, I think some people do for sure. I kind of went away from competitions for a lot of years because like I saw that people were just doing like Instagrammable drinks for competitions or drinks that you wouldn't be able to produce in a volume setting at your bar. Personally, I really like making drinks that I can put on the menu. You know, they're tried and true, like on a menu, workhorse drinks, or I don't want to put something on there that I, that doesn't represent my style. You know what I mean? Or like my, like what we make on a daily basis of foundation. Personally, I'd like to put drinks on there that like I would want to put on a menu or I would want to make 700 times or, you know what I mean? Or if you're in the weeds, you can still get this out. Yeah, exactly. So, but on the other hand, a lot of people as of late that do win competitions and are like going deep in Diageo world-class or deep in, you know, the Bombay most imaginative bartender, they're like these crazy cocktails you would see only on Instagram. So, I mean, I don't know. There's two, you know, there's kind of two sides to the story there. Personally, I like to make workhorse drinks, like drinks that want to go on a menu, drinks that I want to make a million of, drinks that everybody can enjoy. Like, even when they come into your bar, they're not like, what's that drink you made in this competition? Like, I want to drink it. And then you won't, you can't produce it because it's like some foam or some, you know, like just... Like I could do that, but it's going to take seven hours. Yeah, exactly. Like... Or we missed the prep window for that today. So you don't get that cocktail. Yeah. So, you know, when I'm approaching a competition, I just do it exactly how I would put a drink on a menu or for this or even for this, you know, same, same, just I'm making a cocktail at the end of the day. So... Sure. Talking about the inspiration earlier, I know one of your love, well, one of your two loves is racing. Yeah. Huge gearhead. Yeah. I was gonna say, we were talking before we started the episode that, you know, you grew up kind of around cars, around racing. Yeah. Do you have any cocktails that have been inspired by your love of racing? So many. Yeah, so many. I mean, I think with names for sure, like right now on the menu of foundation, we have a, there's a real famous short track in Winston-Salem called Bowman Gray, Bowman Gray Stadium. So I have a cocktail on the menu called the Bowman Gray, and it's made with Suttler's Gin out of Winston-Salem. So I always try to put some nod to some like, you know, counterculture scenario on the menu. So Bowman Gray is in there. I'm sure I've done like an arts incentive drink at some point. I mean, we've done so many menus that we always are coming up with funny names or like play on words. So I'm sure there's a Dale Earnhardt drink in there somewhere. Like, yeah, like there's always something like that, you know? That's awesome. Yeah. Now your second love, the Cincinnati Reds. Oh yeah. Diehard Reds fan. I was gonna say, now, do you have anything inspired by, you know, your love of the team or by the team? Yeah. I had a Charlie Hustle drink on there. I think I've had multiple renditions of the Charlie Hustle, but if you're not familiar, Charlie Hustle's Pete Rose and you know, he deserves to be in the baseball hall of fame. Agreed. Agreed. He gambled on himself. So it wasn't like he was throwing a game or anything else, you know? Yeah. So Charlie Hustle's been on there. I'm trying to think. I'm sure there's been other red stuff. I mean, I'm a big hockey guy, Columbus Blue Jackets. I've put Blue Jackets riffs on the menu before. I mean, bangles. I was just saying, are you sure you want to admit to being a Blue Jackets? Yeah. In a town with its own hockey team? I get a lot of shit when I go to PNC Arena, man. That's all right. I'm actually a Bruins fan. Oh, you get even more shit than I do. I always take one of my kids and put them in a Hurricanes jersey just in case. Yeah. My wife wears hurricane stuff when we go. It actually causes more rift than helps usually. So. So our challenge in this episode, you know, as we're talking about the sober curious movement and mindful mixology is we want to see how each contestant can create a drink that not only tantalizes the taste buds, but also captivates the imagination. It should evoke a sense of well-being, mindfulness and sophistication, all while being entirely alcohol free. With that said, do you want to take a moment and tell us about your cocktail that you submitted? Yeah. I basically just kind of reworked a cocktail I had on a menu at Mana in Wilmington, like over 10 years ago. I called it the Apertevo with a play on the word T like T E A. So I changed this to X to Apertevo X. If you're familiar with any hardcore straight edge bands, they usually are named like X looking forward X or, you know, X judge X. So, yeah, the name is pretty funny. And I just did like a gin quote unquote sour. I used to Seedlip the garden 108 Seedlip, which is, I wouldn't say a gin substitute. It just has like these nice like gardeny flavors to it, kind of a little bit of pininess to it, but more floral notes. And then we infused that with Earl Gray breakfast tea, just for a few hours. And then just, just real light infusion. And then I used a ritual zero proof, an Aperteef alternative. It's like a bitter red, basically. It's essentially like a Aperol or Campari substitute. Really cool flavors in that too. And then just lemon juice, a honey syrup, that's three to one and egg white. And then just shake that up, dry shake, wet shake, dry shake. And then I top it with cranberry bitters, just like how we would do on a whiskey sour, just a few dots and then just like spoon drag it through. It gets the nose of that egg white, not to be like a wet dog, you know, like sometimes you can get that. Oh yeah, absolutely. The egg white makes for such a beautiful presentation and a nice rounding of certain flavors, but right on the front of the nose, it can be a little... Sometimes if you don't do it the right way, like I think that's what we always try to put something, you know, either an aromatic on the top or like, you know, zest or something, something try to do. Sure. So the AI brought what it calls Elysian Tranquility. Oh man. Like I said, book smart. Right. That consisted of one ounce of lavender infused honey syrup. Weird. One ounce freshly squeezed orange juice. We use Cara Cara oranges, half an ounce of fresh lemon juice, quarter of an ounce of fresh lime juice, a half an ounce of ginger syrup, egg white, two dashes of orange blossom water. How is it so close? Like how's the egg white and the honey? And an edible flower garnish. They said you could use a coop or a Nick and Nora. So we did this. Both did it up. We both did it up. Absolutely. This thing is reading my brain, man. So this is what I mean. Sometimes it's amazing to me. And I had the recipe generated from chat GBT 30 seconds that, you know, like 30 seconds after I had the creation prompt, you know. So funny. And then, you know, received yours later. But it's funny how that close. Yeah. It's it's amazing to see the subtle differences. There's a component of the Seedlip we were looking at. Oh, no, it's the Earl Grey tea actually has lavender. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you get subtle hints of lavender in the infusion of the Seedlip. And then you have the honey that you were doing in yours. And so it's it's kind of wild. Egg white too. Like, you know, like just all the same. Yep. And served up wild, wild, wild. So, like I said, ultimately a very similar approach. You know, we did that in a Nick and Nora and the garnish on that. Like I said, it was just an edible flower. So yeah, it's kind of a nice presentation. Yeah. Those are our cocktails. Now I get my ass beat here. Well, now it's time to break into the scoring. So as we do for every episode, we have an established rubric. Pretty simple. We have three buckets of points. We have taste 50 points because ultimately it's all about how we're, you know, how we're enjoying the flavors. Yeah. We have presentation because that is a nice component. That is important component. That's total of 30 points. And then we have originality, a total of 20 points. And so see how, how it ended up. So I'm gonna do the AI first. Yeah, let's, let's do this. All right. Robot. The AI for taste, 38 points. Out of 50, right? Out of 50. Presentation, 29 points out of 30. Originality, originality, 15 out of 20. Your cocktail. Taste, 37 points. Presentation, 25 points. Originality, 15 points. I got beat by the AI. You got beat by the fucking AI. Jesus. So you, I was talking all this jazz in here. You ended up at 77 points. Damn, son. The AI ended up at 82. Good Lord. See, they are taking our jobs, man. You know, I always love reading the judge's commentary. Yeah, yeah. So when we talked about your cocktail, they said that the egg white gives this drink a great texture, but perhaps mutes the flavors too much in the process. Maybe having a bit more acidity or another bite of some kind for the palate would have made this cocktail more enjoyable and memorable. Yeah. While I would drink the whole thing, I don't know that I'd come back for a second. Yeah, yeah. Or the AI cocktail. Another egg white cocktail, but this one has a bit more of a bright note that comes through. Once again, floral and complex like the first, but the slight difference in the interest on the palate makes this a more memorable drink. I may even consider having a second. Yeah, yeah. So that juice, dude, I'm telling you is is crazy and how close these tasted because I knew if the judge did their scoring, they were like, you really should taste these in very similar cocktail. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, the cool thing is there's a rendition with booze in it going on to the next menu, so that'll make it more memorable and bright. I think, you know, I love my spirit-free cocktails, but I mean, they definitely can, you know, they're not as like robust, obviously. Like that's a hard thing to work with, man. So, you know, one of the things that Derrick Brown mentions is it's oftentimes the, and I have so much trouble pronouncing this word. So, you know what pecan means, like the bite. Yeah, yeah. Recreating that or having something that handles that component, that bite that you would normally get from your spirit. Super hard, yeah. Is the toughest thing. And I know that with like some of the zero-proof spirits, the critique that I had heard from other folks is that oftentimes they just kind of rely on ginger to get that. Or like some pepper or something like that. Yeah. And I do kind of look at the AI's cocktail and I see that ginger syrup probably doing a good bit of that bite. Yeah, big time, yeah. But I will say with everything said, I would drink both of these at like any time. It was kind of nice because, you know, we have young kids and they see what we do and we make them mocktails on occasion. But, you know, it's oftentimes it's the couple of juices. Yeah, yeah. Some sparkling water and yeah, some bitters. But this is, this is kind of nice because as we're recording this, it's actually the first day of school for my kids. So when they get home, they're getting a round of these. Yeah. They're super excited. Hard day at work. Yeah, dude. They're super excited. Hard day at work and a nice cocktail. Yeah. I mean, I think that it is difficult to make cocktails. So like typically a drink like I just made is like, like I usually do way opposite, like booze, belly warming, stirred Amari heavy drinks. So it's funny when I break out of, you know, when I do like an egg white drink or something like that, I'm always just like, I wonder, like I just, it's just, it's like out of my comfort zone. So I kind of like doing drinks like this too, because it's like what I normally do, you know? Well, as you say, you know, it's just like anything. You've got a really great collection of skills and this is something that forces you to work on a different facet of it. Push the envelope. Yeah. That's amazing. All right. You've listened to a couple of episodes. Yeah. You know what's coming, right? Everyone's favorite segment. Don't get me started. Oh man. Just to recap for our listeners. If you're not familiar with this part, I'm going to pick a topic. I'm going to give that topic to Ian. He has 30 seconds in which he is obligated to completely rail against whatever topic I give him. Now, just a note. I'm pretty good at this kind of thing as the views reflected here are not the views of drinking with robots. They're not the views of Ian's employer. They may not even be Ian's views. It'd be a bit with that said, Ian, don't get me started on speakeasies. Oh man. Well, first of all, you don't need to go behind some weird soda machine door to get into foundation. We're not a speakeasy. We're an underground bar. We don't play 1920s jazz music. We're not wearing arm garters. We're not wearing bow ties. We're not, we don't have our hair slicked back. We make really good drinks that we don't have to say they were in the great Gatsby. I mean, there's so many things I could go on for 30 minutes about this. We're not a speakeasy. We're an underground bar that just how happens to make cocktails. Get over yourselves. I have to say, I imagine that you guys get that question quite frequently. Every day. Yeah. I was going to say, and it's kind of be maddening. It's, I mean, we're, you know, we're a cocktail bar that's underground. You can find us. We have a chalkboard sign outside. We're playing music outside. We have tables outside. We're not selling anything illegal. You're not trying to be hidden. No, not at all. Not at all. We just, we have a cool space that's subterranean. That's like, it's not a speakeasy. We're wearing like Nikes and playing like the clash. You know what I mean? It's not. I was going to say that sounds like it's a perfect spot. Yeah. Well, listen, I want to say thank you so much for coming in today and doing the show. If people want to catch up with you on social media, where can they find you? Ian underscore, underscore Murray on Instagram and foundation bar on Instagram. And that's about it. Awesome. Well, once again, thank you so much. Appreciate you being here and to our listeners. I want to say be well, drink well, and we will talk soon. Cheers.