The Big Apple. The city that never sleeps. Gotham. New York City. No matter what you call it, New York is one of the most recognizable city names in the world. In this episode, we'll be talking about arguably the most well-known of the New York City boroughs, Manhattan, as well as the history of the Manhattan Cocktail. Greg Benson, bartender, writer, and co-host. Greg Benson, co-host of the Speakeasy podcast. We'll be stopping by a little later to talk to us about his love of New York City, what Manhattan looks like from Brooklyn, and his experiences playing with A.I. But first, a word from our sponsor. Upgrade your cocktail game with Remedy Cocktail Company's handcrafted bitters. Order online at RemedyCocktailCompany.com and choose from over 20 flavors. Elevate your drink experience today. I want to be a part of it. New York, New York. Ah, Manhattan. The cultural, financial, and iconic center of New York City, and to many, the world. The Empire State Building, Times Square, Central Park, Broadway, Wall Street, and more museums than you can tour in a day, all call the island of Manhattan home. However, before the glitz and glamour, before the sky-high skyscrapers, Manhattan had a long and storied history. So let's dive in and start at the beginning. Step back with me to a time when the honking taxis and dazzling billboards were nothing but a distant dream. Manhattan, before it embraced its modern facade, was home to the indigenous Lenape people. The Lenape, a diverse group with interconnected languages and familial ties, dwelled in Lenapehoking, a region stretching across eastern Pennsylvania, New Jersey, lower New York Bay, and eastern Delaware. On the island they called Manahata, or Island of Many Hills, the Lenape found a home. It's quite the paradox today, considering most of the over 500 hills once noted on the island are now a memory, save for a few undulating slopes on the Upper West Side. With the arrival of the Age of Discovery, which is really just a way of saying, Europeans sold to new lands and informed the existing inhabitants that their lands now belonged to some European country. Hmm, this land looks nice, you're not doing anything with it, it's mine now. Europeans began to really explore the Americas. In 1524, April 17th to be precise, Giovanni di Verrazzano sailed into what we now call New York Bay. His landing on the shores of Manhattan marked the first European gaze upon its land. Swiftly claiming it for France, Verrazzano set the stage for an intricate dance of discovery and colonization. Four years later, during his third voyage to North America, Verrazzano anchored out to sea and rode ashore to another island, probably the island of Guadalupe, where he was allegedly killed and eaten by the native Caribs. Who knows, maybe they didn't like finding out that their land suddenly belonged to France as well. And then there's Henry Hudson, set forth by the Dutch East India Company in 1609 on a quest for the elusive Northwest Passage. Henry made his way up the river that bears his name today, laying the groundwork for Dutch colonization and unknowingly for Manhattan's evolution into the thriving metropolis we know today. For the 15 years following Hudson's initial voyage, the Dutch didn't quite give up their hopes of finding that elusive Northwest Passage. They had their eyes set on the region around present-day Manhattan, recognizing its potential. This led to the establishment of New Netherlands in 1614, a move motivated by the flourishing fur trade. Here's a little-known fact. The pilgrims departed from England, initially aimed to sell to the Hudson River, but the Mayflower shortage of supplies forced them to establish the Plymouth Colony in Cape Cod instead. In 1624, the Dutch planted the seeds of New Amsterdam on the southern tip of Manhattan, and in the years that followed, the bustling city began taking shape. It welcomed a diverse population of Dutch, English, French, free and enslaved Africans. The spirit of unity and variety thrived in the city. Fast forward to 1664, when an English fleet's quiet entry into the harbor marked a shift in ownership. With a change of name, New Amsterdam to New York, the city took on a new identity under British rule. But even in the years of British reign, Manhattan's story wasn't fixed. Briefly, in 1673, it was known as New Orange, reclaimed by the Dutch during the Third Anglo-Dutch War. The 18th century dawned, and with it, a city on the verge of monumental growth. Manhattan's population expanded from a mere 6,000 at the start of the century to over 10 times that figure by its close. The ideals of the European Enlightenment found their home in Manhattan as well, birthing institutions like the city's first public school, first university, and first permanent theater. This era also marked the rise of the Sons of Liberty, a defiant political force advocating for colonist rights and battling British taxation. As the American Revolution flared, Manhattan found itself at the heart of the New York campaign, a series of pivotal battles that shaped the revolution's early days. The revolution wasn't kind to the city, though. It bore witness to the Battle of Fort Washington and the Great Fire of New York, both events casting a long shadow over its landscape. The city was in British hands, but George Washington's triumphant return marked the end of that chapter in 1783. Through the subsequent years, Manhattan's role shifted from capital to cultural and economic powerhouse, with the birth of the Bank of New York and the foundation of the New York Stock Exchange. By the 19th century, Manhattan was sprinting into the future. The Commissioner's Plan of 1811 laid down a grid system that's still etched into the streets today. If you've ever marveled at the orderliness of those streets, give a nod to this plan's architects. In 1825, the Erie Canal opened its waters, propelling New York City into a golden era of commerce. This wasn't just a canal. It was a gateway to the west, transforming Manhattan into a thriving commercial hub. An influx of immigrants from Ireland, Germany, Italy, and beyond fueled the city's explosive growth, leading to the construction of Central Park in 1858 to cater to the recreational needs of its burgeoning population. The Civil War period brought its own share of turmoil, with the draft riots of 1863 exposing deep-seated racial and economic divisions. Nearing the close of the 19th century, a beacon of innovation shone as Thomas Edison flipped the switch on the world's first commercial electrical grid in Lower Manhattan. But let's not forget one of the most exciting moments of the 19th century. The birth of the Manhattan Cocktail. The traditional tale spins a yarn of its creation at the Manhattan Club in late 1874 by Ian Marshall for a banquet hosted by Brooklyn native Jenny Jerome, perhaps better known as Lady Randolph Churchill, mother of future British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, in honor of New York governor and future Democratic presidential candidate Samuel J. Tilden. It's a charming story, indeed. A story which neatly wraps up the birth of the Manhattan Cocktail in a very tidy package. There's only one issue. It's almost 100% untrue. Given that there's no evidence of Lady Churchill being in attendance at the banquet in question in 1874, as well as the fact that she was heavily pregnant and in England at the time, Winston Churchill was born on November 30th, 1874, this tale doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Historians have engaged in friendly debate over the cocktail's true origins. Was it born at the Manhattan Club or perhaps the Hoffman House? Some even proposed that a bartender by the name of Black concocted it as early as 1860 at a bar near Broadway in Halston. Regardless, the Manhattan was already making its way into various bartender guides by the 1880s. Crossing borders, this cocktail traveled with German immigrants as they returned to their homes on the North Frisian Islands off the North Sea coast, becoming a beloved favorite there, too. Who would have guessed that the Manhattan cocktail would become a global sensation, transcending oceans and cultures? By the 1920s, Manhattan was alive with energy, creativity, and a hint of rebellion. The city had become a cultural epicenter, drawing artists, writers, and musicians into its vibrant embrace. Speakeasies flourished as the 18th Amendment prohibited alcohol production and sale, but in Manhattan, prohibition was more of a suggestion than a law. Hidden bars served up cocktails to those in the know, and the city's nightlife became a thrilling game of cat and mouse with the authorities. Jazz was the heartbeat of the city, with legends like Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong performing in clubs like the Cotton Club in Harlem. This era also gave birth to the Harlem Renaissance, a cultural revival that celebrated African American arts, literature, and intellectualism. However, the party came to a crashing halt with the stock market crash of 1929. The Great Depression enveloped the city, casting a shadow over the glitz and glamour. Unemployment soared, and the divide between rich and poor became a gaping chasm. But even in its darkest days, Manhattan's resilience shone through. New Deal projects like the construction of the Rockefeller Center provided jobs and bolstered the city's infrastructure. The Empire State Building, completed in 1931, became a soaring symbol of hope and human achievement. Fast forward to the modern era, and Manhattan is a global icon. A city that never sleeps, and a place where dreams are born, broken, and reborn again. Post-World War II, the city became a center for business, arts, and innovation. The United Nations headquarters establishment in 1945 cemented Manhattan's role as a hub for international diplomacy. The cultural scene flourished with the rise of Broadway, the expansion of world-class museums like the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the evolution of diverse music genres from hip-hop to punk. Financially, Wall Street grew to dominate the global economy. The bull and the bear danced their tango, making and breaking fortunes at the speed of stock tickers. New York is in New York without you, love So far in the few blocks to be so low And if I call you from first, I've been new We're the only motherfucker in the city who can handle me Tragedy struck on September 11, 2001 As terrorist attacks brought down the Twin Towers The city mourned, but it also showed its unbreakable spirit Rebuilding and remembering in a way that only Manhattan can We're the only motherfucker in the city who can stand me Today, Manhattan is a place of contrasts. Skyscrapers touch the sky while historic neighborhoods retain their old-world charm. Food trucks and Michelin star restaurants coexist, serving up a culinary feast that reflects the city's multicultural tapestry. Tech startups rub shoulders with traditional businesses, creating a dynamic blend of the old and the new. Sustainability initiatives and urban development projects are reshaping the city's future, ensuring that Manhattan continues to evolve, innovate, and inspire. From Central Park's green oasis to Times Square's neon glow, Manhattan is a cocktail of experiences, flavors, and emotions. It's a city that tells a thousand stories, each one a unique blend of history, culture, ambition, and the indefinable magic that makes Manhattan, well, Manhattan. For this episode's challenge, our contestants are tasked with conjuring up a concoction that screams modern Manhattan. Dive into the neon pulse of Times Square, flirt with the avant-garde vibes of the Lower East Side, and waltz with the elegance of the Upper East Side. Their drink shouldn't just pay homage to the classic Manhattan, but should also dance to the city's contemporary beats. So stick around after the break when we sit down with our guest, Greg Benson, co-host of the Speakeasy Podcast. A little later, we'll see how he fares when he has to go head-to-head with our AI contender. Will he claim victory, or will he be shipped off to a Staten Island garbage heap? Stick around to find out. I want to take a moment to say thank you for listening so far. I'd love it if you'd connect with the podcast on social media. We're Drinking With Robots on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Threads. And we definitely appreciate your likes and follows. Make sure to hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening to our podcast on, so you don't miss any episodes. Also, check out DrinkingWithRobots.com while you're at it. Hey, folks. Well, we're here today with our guest, Greg Benson. For those of you who may not know Greg, Greg is one of the co-hosts of the Speakeasy Podcast. It's one of my favorite podcasts. I'd say that even if Greg wasn't here. It's also recently an award winner for Best Broadcast Podcast or Online Video Series at the recent 17th Annual Tales Spirited Awards. I think they should have gotten that a couple of years ago and probably repeatedly. Greg's also been the host of Back Bar, which is a history of drinks and how what we drink shapes history. Greg, thank you for being here. Oh, man. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to this. I'm looking forward to seeing how I did against our future robot overlords. It's always exciting on my side because getting to see both of the specs and knowing whose is whose before the judge tries them. I'm always kind of like, hmm, this is going to be interesting. Do you get to be in the room and like watch as they react to it? Or would that skew the sample size, do you think? So I typically will serve and step out. We try and keep this as uninfluenced as possible. Now, I will say your episode marks kind of an interesting situation. We've had a very busy travel itinerary this summer. We've been kind of all over the East Coast into the Midwest. And my judge was out of town. So, your cocktail had a special judge, our good friend Matt Weiss. He's one of the co-hosts of the North Carolina Food and Bev podcast. He's a wine rep. He's got a very advanced palate. So I fully trust his judging. But you're the first person to not be judged by Ariana, who runs Remedy Cocktail Company. But I don't know how that will play out. I will have her try both cocktails once she's back in town and see if her judging may have differed. But we shall see. Do you suspect either of them is secretly a robot? I can vouch that one is definitely not a robot. The other one, I'm 90% sure. Did I get the 90% one? If I lose, that's just what I'll blame it on. How about that? Absolutely. You know, you can blame it on the AI influence for travel delays and whatnot. That's perfectly fine. Perfectly fine. Awesome. So this episode is about your borough next door being a Brooklynite these days. It's all about Manhattan. In the first part of the show, we talked about kind of the history of Manhattan. And it's always interesting because depending on where you grew up and at what time frame, I always loved the Manhattan was discovered and it's usually followed by whenever the first, you know, fair complexioned individual arrived. But, you know, it had a long history as part of the lands for the Lenape people well before Verrazano saw it from a boat or Henry Hudson landed or anything else. But, you know, we kind of talked about the progress of Manhattan into kind of what it is today. This kind of Mecca drawing people, you know, New York City as a whole, people have fallen in love with starting, you know, in the 19th century. Really, Manhattan itself is kind of this. I would almost call it the enclave where everyone wants to be unless they want to be in Brooklyn. Well, I always like to say that New York City sucks. So it's a real shame. It's the greatest place on earth. And I think that that is doubly true for the island of Manhattan because, you know, I love it out here in Brooklyn. But part of the reason that I love it is that like I can I'm close enough to see Manhattan on a daily basis. And it's just it there's there's no other place like it. There's no other place that has that furious energy, that place where you can just, you know, any anything you could ever possibly imagine or conceivably want or an experience you want to participate in or something that you want to do. It is somewhere on the island of Manhattan. And there's just something amazing about like that many totally densely populated people living in in one spot and kind of like you can sort of look around a subway car and everyone has this this air of them of like, you know what? We all we all did it. We all survived another day here and and good for us. Like I worry sometimes that I'm becoming one of these sad sacks that's like I can't live anywhere except New York City. But I'll say this, I've never been to Los Angeles and every single time I have a friend go to L.A. and I ask them how their trip was, I always get the same answer. They go, oh, my God, it was so amazing. You would hate it there. And I'm like, why? And I'm like, oh, it's just like really laid back and chill. And everybody just kind of is like taking their time and like strolling on the sidewalk. And I was like, are you saying I'm too much of a stressed out East Coast anxiety monster to enjoy taking it easy? And they're like, yes, yes, I am. And I'm like, OK, fair point. I can see that that is an accurate read of my personality. I will say this. I grew up in the South, but I lived for about a decade in Boston, which while not the same as new, it was great times. With that said, one thing that I did find interesting was that walking pace that you have in an East Coast City, you don't lose that after you've lived in one. Back in the South, anytime I'm walking anywhere with friends, we're like, OK, let's go. And I'm not a small man, but I move quick. And my friends, you know, they're calling out from behind me like, slow down. I'm like, I'm not going fast. Why are you not here? You know, but but I think there is something to the whole East Coast, a little uptight and, you know, tough to tough to kind of relax. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like I the very first job I ever had when I moved to New York, I won't say the name of the restaurant because it sucked, but I don't and I don't want to give them the satisfaction of giving them a shout out on this podcast. But I'll always remember the the mom from Texas that stopped in to have brunch after dropping your kid off for freshman year at NYU and in her cute little Texas accent that I'm not going to try and imitate because I don't want to be canceled. She was like, you know, everyone always told me New Yorkers were so mean, but everyone here is nice. And we were having a pleasant chat and she was having a pleasant chat with the servers. And I guess I had a pleasant day with whoever she'd been with earlier. And I was kind of like, look, I think that there's something to that. But I think it's also just that we get our diet of fury out in so many small little things. Like I was in the new Penn Station that they just built recently and I was trying to catch a bus and I was behind these people who are just moving at just such a slow pace. And I was like, what are you doing? What are you fucking window shopping? It's a train station. Move. Like we'll find your train. Move. Yeah, let's get some hustle here. But that's the thing is you get that out of your diet in like tiny little snippets. So when you get an actual positive interaction, we're all just so starved for it that we just cling on to it like people that have been rescued from the wilderness seeing a hamburger or something. It's like, oh, yes, this is what I've craved for today. Thank you. Thank you. It keeps me going until tomorrow. I needed this more than you can ever know. Well, and I will say, you know, the times where I've been in New York, my interactions have generally always been positive. I will almost guarantee the first time in New York, everyone kind of has that look of all as they are constantly looking around and going, oh, I know this place from this. I know that place from that you're like sightseeing and doing all those kind of things. But I think once you get out of that and you actually just start talking to people, it's rare that you find somebody who is from New York City, like from Manhattan. I feel like all these transplant folks who've come in and to your point of like you make it every day and you kind of congratulate yourself. And I love going to New York, but I'm good for about four days. I'm good for about four days just because at like a certain point, I'm just I'm tired of always being on the go because that's how I always am in New York. It's like I'm going here, I'm going there. You know, there's no chill for me. But folks that live there, God bless you. God bless you. Thanks, man. Well, you know, it still surprises me because the first time I ever came to New York, I remember that just like I came here on a high school band trip when I was like 16 or 17 years old. And I just remember just being gobsmacked by like the sheer scale of it and thinking like this place is terrible. I would never want to live here. Now, granted, I think my opinion was colored a little bit by the fact that I also got dumped on said band trip. So there is there might have been a little bit of a skewed opinion there. But yeah, it is just so it's Manhattan, especially like I like living out here in Brooklyn because you get just that little extra space to breathe that like I think you really need. I mean, my hat is off to anyone who who can pull off like living in Manhattan and just being surrounded by all of that space and humanity. That's just pushing in on you from all angles all the time. And it's thrilling. But like I'm out here in I'm out here in Bay Ridge. I not only live in Brooklyn. I live in South Brooklyn. I live so far south in Brooklyn. My congressperson is a Republican. That's how far south in Brooklyn. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Say same congressperson as Staten Island, baby. That's where I'm at. So I'm like nice and far away from the epicenter of that. But yeah, I could not except for one summer where I apartment sat up in Harlem. So there was like it was kind of near Morningside Park and it was like a little bit more space because I also had Central Park right there. Like that was nice, but I probably wouldn't have wanted to do that for more than like the two months that I was there. I was just curious about this and look this up while we're chatting. So your area has a population density of 50.5 inhabitants per acre. Manhattan's average density is 104.6 persons per acre. So about twice. Honestly, I would have thought that it was more. I would have thought that it was going to be like three or four times more than it is out here. Yeah. And now I'm actually really curious. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, because that's also the thing is like I was up in. I was way the hell up in Inwood about a week ago. I was up at the Met Cloisters, which anybody listen to this. If you were ever in New York City and you're like, I want to do something that's like really cool, but also isn't going to be mobbed with other people sightseeing. Check out the Met Cloisters. It is pretty much like right up at the northern, like the north westerly most tip of Manhattan. And it is a bunch of medieval art in a sort of faux monastery that the Met has built. Super, super cool. And like up there, I was remarking to my friends as we were walking around. I'm like, it feels kind of Brooklyn-y up here. Like you have a little bit more, you know, you're not totally smooshed in. And I imagine that that would be quite pleasant. I feel like I could probably hack that. But yeah, like living down in Fideye, oof. Well, so if you ever feel like it's too much for you, I just looked up the population density of the suburb that we're based in outside of Raleigh, North Carolina. Manhattan has 72,918 residents per square mile. Our town has 1,642. So if you ever feel like it's too much, you can come visit. You have to go home, but you can come visit. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was going to say, I can't, I'm in a rent-controlled apartment, so I have to live here until I die. But I'll definitely come for a visit. That was actually a source of a lot of conversation the last time we were in New York City speaking with some of the folks, is if you can ever happen into a rent-controlled apartment, that's the end game. You just don't go anywhere else. Oh, yeah. No, I can't, I can't leave. And I mean, I'm, I'm very lucky. I have such a crush in my apartment. It's such a nice place. But I, I got like one of the very last COVID deals in like summer of 2021. And I was just like, this, this is it. I'm done. And it's kind of nice. It's like, I am done doing inter New York City moves. I'm done loading my crap into a U-Haul and then driving it through. In fact, when I first moved here, I'd done a little bit of sightseeing because I was dating someone who lived here. So I'd come up to visit. But like, I didn't have this sort of, you know, map in my head the way I do now. And for whatever silly reason, the algorithm behind Google Maps decided that it was going to take me through Grand Army Plaza in a fucking U-Haul, which I had never been to before. And I'm just like, if you haven't seen it, it's just this circle of probably unhyperbolously a dozen roads all coming together and intersecting and crossing. Plus, it is, you know, a really beautiful statue. And it's at the opening to Prospect Park and the main Brooklyn Library is there. So there's pedestrians. There are bicyclists. There are people on scooters. And if you are in a massive moving truck that doesn't have a rearview mirror, that is an unbelievably stressful experience. Oh, yeah. You just start to white knuckle the steering wheel and sweat profusely. Yes. But the thing is, though, because I'd never seen it before and because it is so gorgeous, I was kind of looking around like, oh, fuck. Oh, shit. Oh, man. Oh, wow. That's actually really beautiful. Oh, crap. This is really nice. Oh, man, I need to remember where this is so I can come back later. In a similar vein, when my wife moved to Boston, a good friend of ours went with her because she took a very large moving truck and then towed her vehicle behind it. Now, I was not there, but I did hear stories about how there were probably multiple people who lost side view mirrors because, you know, the roads are narrow sometimes. And, well, you know, it's pick one side, pick the other side. Yeah, I had a similar experience with a moving truck in Philly. There's a stop sign that hasn't quite been the same since I helped a friend move a little while ago. Now, I know that you have a history of being a full time behind the bar bartender. I'm always curious about like the words people use to identify that job, right? Like being behind the bar. You know, I always ask guests, like, what do you think that should be called? You know, what do you call yourself when you're back there? Are you a bartender? Are you a cocktail bartender? Are you a mixologist? You know, things like that. And I know you're not behind the bar all the time nowadays, but what's your view on that? I'm curious. Like, what's your take on that? I really don't care for the term mixologist. It just feels it feels like it puts up barriers to me that don't need to be there. And it feels like it also kind of elevates the person self-describing as a mixologist to a status that like, you know, perhaps they haven't earned. I think at the end of the day, everyone wants to go to a bar that has a great bartender that works there. Not everyone is going to feel comfortable going to a bar that has a mixologist. You know, there's a very, like, you know, sort of white upper middle class gentrified connotation to that word. And it almost feels like we needed to come up with something to take this, you know, very respectable, cool, established profession where you can do cool, established things and just create this subcategory where it's like, yeah, but it's like that, but better. And I don't really like that. I would rather I would rather everyone just be a bartender, you know, because that's because that's what you are. And I think that, you know, it helps give people who might be getting a swelled opinion of themselves a little bit of humility. And I also think that if people are, you know, established in the industry is, I guess I kind of am now, which is just weird to consider. This is literally a new thought that's happening to me as I'm speaking to you, Rob. Wait, I am a well-regarded senior member of my community. How the hell did this happen? Who wrote this thing? But yeah, you know, I think I think it's helpful to, you know, have leaders out there who are like, hey, you know, just don't don't put on a bunch of fancy labels. Just go out there and do your job. You know, everyone, everyone likes to be seen after by a bartender. I will tell you, though, only once in my life have I identified as a mixologist. And it was when I fell off my bike coming home from work and I broke my arm and I'm sitting in the emergency room with the ace bandage and the paper towel tube that I've used to create a field condition splint around my hand. And they give you that form to fill out and they have that little tiny box that just says occupation. And I was like, I need a word to tell these people concisely how important it is that I get my hand back as fast as possible. So I just wrote down mixologist. And then the woman doing the intake looks at and just goes, oh, well, you're a mixologist. Cool. And then she looks at me and just goes, oh, and I was like, yes, you see you see the problem now. The thing I was going to say, every time I have this conversation, I get the same kind of feedback. Right. Everybody's like, you know, I'm really just a bartender or maybe at most cocktail bartender. Maybe they kind of throw that word in. And it makes me wonder, is it just the folks writing the articles that are using mixologists? You know what I mean? Because no one that I know who's behind the bar goes, yes, I'm a mixologist. You know? Yeah. I mean, that's that's a good question. I also think that maybe it's just something that it's a trend that has just kind of like hit its high watermark a while ago. And the tide is on the way out on that one. I'm going to I'm going to borrow an idea from my two co-hosts at the Speakeasy, Damon and Southern, who have been upstanding senior members of their community for a lot longer than I have. God bless them. And, you know, their take on that whole, you know, 2005 to let's call it 2012 era of bartending is that the whole thing with like the suspenders and the vests and the tie clips and the like the quiet bar where it's like watch the bartender work like that was necessary because people hadn't taken the craft seriously in decades. So we needed to kind of make a little bit of a big deal out of the fact that like this is this is a real career, dad. And, you know, that was a necessary component to get us to where we are today, which is at the point where people are writing articles about mixologists and are taking this stuff seriously. I mean, shit. I read an article recently about a cryo bloody Mary, which I originally misread as crypto bloody Mary. And then I was like, oh, oh, it's cryo. But well, I'm I'm still no, I'm still not. But, you know, we are past the point where we need to persuade people that this is like a craft worthy of respect. And so I think that that was the time at which the word mixologist was useful. But I think maybe it's just kind of, you know, outlived our need for it. I think maybe that's a good point, because I think let's see, it would have been somewhere around 2009. I think the first time I walked into a craft cocktail bar and that was in the Brighton Austin neighborhood of Boston. The spot popped up called Deep Ellum, and it was very much as you described it. All the guys had the handlebar mustache and the suspenders and the leather aprons and, you know, definitely had that feeling of like this is definitely not a Jack and Coke or pulling a beer, you know, kind of spot. But I am kind of glad that most of the places that I frequent these days for high quality cocktails are further steps down on the pretentious scale, you know. So maybe it is that maybe it's just it was a necessary term at the moment to set it apart as something that needed to be experienced in a different way than we have been treating cocktails prior to that. Yeah. And I think it was necessary to kind of set those places apart, too, because you and you know, you hadn't seen that before. Like all the bartenders before that were wearing like trucker hats and T-shirts. Then you walk into this place and people are dressed like they're, you know, bartending a shindig at Jay Gatsby's house. And you're like, oh, oh, absolutely. This is different. But, you know, I'm I I think that while it was very, very necessary, I am glad that we have moved past that. And now I can all go back to wearing trucker hats and T-shirts and be taken seriously when we do, which is, you know, best of both worlds. So I was going to say, I know that you're not regularly behind the bar these days. What are you doing? Producing podcasts. Mostly it was super weird. My side gig and my main hustle kind of switched places in 2020 because for many, many years I'd been producing one of my shows that you mentioned at the top of this program, Back Bar. I'd been producing that as kind of a labor of love on the side for many, many years at a very sort of, you know, George R.R. Martin-y pace, like one episode every, I don't know, six months or so, if you were lucky. And then I was bartending full time. I worked at a couple of really awesome spots here in New York. I got to work at a great place called The Jeffrey that I really, really loved. That's on 60th and 2nd. If you're ever in town, check it out. It's awesome. I was working at a illegal mezcal pop-up attached to an awesome place called Paper Daisy. God rest its soul. It died of COVID, which is super unfortunate. It was great. And I was really loving that. But I was also kind of getting to the point in my life where I was like, OK, I don't want to own my own bar and restaurant. I'm glad that other people do. And that's their calling, because me personally, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Like, that's just not something. Well, I was going to say, I mean, your co-host for Speakeasy seems to open a new one every month. Yeah, he owns a new bar every single time we jump on the studio to record the show. And that's the thing is, like, I'm glad that there are people out there that are, like, super passionate about that and create bars that they just love and are super invested in, like, mind, body, and soul. Because I love going to those places. But that's just not me. And it was, you know, I don't want to say it was fortunate. Nothing about the coronavirus was fortunate. But in a very short period of time, me being a bartender and a podcaster, nobody needed bartenders anymore. And everybody was listening to podcasts. So it was a natural transition. And this is kind of where I like to be. You know, I still like to have one foot in the community. I still love this industry. I still think it has a lot of good stuff to give. I also think that there are some flaws out there. And I like that I'm in a position now where I can kind of poke people about that a little bit and hopefully do what I can to nudge the whole shebang into a better direction. But I also, you know, get to do a lot of really cool writing. In fact, before we were talking, I was doing some really, really fun research about a topic that I don't want to say into a live microphone because I have that thing that all authors do where I'm deathly afraid that I'm going to walk into a bookstore and someone's already going to have written the book that I'm working on. So I'm going to keep it to myself for now. But really, really, there's just so much that you can learn about people by looking at the way that they eat and drink. Right. Because, you know, we all need to do it. And absolutely a fascinating little microcosm to look at like little societal trends and how they evolve over time. In fact, one of the things I loved was Mark Forsyth's brief history of drunkenness. So I was reading that. Yeah. If you haven't checked that out. So I actually got turned on to it from a previous guest, Ingrid Folkers, and she had mentioned it. And so I grabbed it on her recommendation. But it's this wonderful history of drinking and drinking to excess across time and cultures. I mean, there's some really interesting tidbits in there about things you never would have even thought to consider, I feel like, for different cultures. Like he goes into like Roman culture with the whole structure of the symposium where they would gather to consume wine and the fact that it was completely expected that you were going to drink to the point of throwing up. You were going to throw up and then you were going to basically puke and rally, you know, and keep going and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, it was. It's just me in freshman year of college, but for an entire empire, basically. Pretty much. Right. But it was also even the social hierarchy that came into that event where you got to sit in relationship to the host and the fact that like you couldn't turn down an invite. And so there were places that were considered to basically be insults to sit. So it was basically like on the left hand side at the farthest seat on the couch away from the host was like the look at that guy. He's a loser, you know, kind of seat. And you couldn't say no. Right. Like you had to be like, yeah, I'm here. You know, and those are things of like, you know, Roman culture that I would never even thought about. But it's like basically how you could insult somebody, but not insult somebody. It was really interesting looking at just that one fractional component of food and drink. God, the insulting used to be such an art form. Like what have we what have we lost with social media? Like that was a craft. I know. My God, the time and effort that would go into burning somebody. I mean, I feel like if you were that dude on the couch, part of you would just be like, all right, well, well played, I suppose. Never. You never see that on Twitter. No one on Twitter ever yields a point. Ever. You got me. You got me. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. The tweet that's never been written. Like, well, you know what? You have a fair point and I concede. Yeah. No. Well, hey, listen. So part of the reason you're here, speaking of New York earlier and everything, you know, we've tasked both you and your AI challenger with cocktail creation prompt. Well, you know, we covered it right before the break, but I'm going to just read it again to sort of fresh in our minds. Manhattan, an electrifying mecca of art, finance, dreams, and of course, dynamite drinks. It's a place where every cobblestone, every glittering high rise and every crosswalk thrums with stories old and new. And oh, that classic cocktail, the Manhattan, a symphony in a glass, whispering tales of a bygone era. Now, imagine for a moment if this iconic borough were to be bottled up into a new age cocktail. What would the 21st century heartbeat of Manhattan taste like? Now we get to the meat of this. Conjure up a concoction that screams modern Manhattan. Dive into the neon pulse of Times Square. Flirt with the avant-garde vibes of the Lower East Side and waltz with the elegance of the Upper East. Your drink shouldn't just pay homage to the classic Manhattan, but should also dance to the city's contemporary beats. Oh, so before we go any further, hang on, I do want to point out, you have been playing with ChatGPT. You do an occasional segment on TikTok, 100 underscore proof Greg on TikTok, called Artificial Intoxicants. And so, A, I want your solemn vow that you did not probe ChatGPT for anything that you turned in for this. I'm going to be honest, that thought didn't even occur to me until now. That very obvious way to cheat didn't even occur to me until you just mentioned it. Good. Second, I think your approach has been a little different than the approach we use on the show, because I think you're speccing give me cocktails with X ingredient, right? Absolutely, yes. I have wrestled with this beast before. And what I do on my segment is I'll give it a prompt where I say, hey, make me a cocktail. I just got the idea because one day I kind of wanted a gin and chartreuse cocktail, and I didn't want to make a last word, and I wasn't feeling too inventive. And I was like, you know what? Let's see what the robot does. I'm sure it won't be able to come up with a fun and interesting cocktail. It doesn't have taste buds. So I asked it to make a new cocktail for me. It gave me a recipe it found online, and I was like, that's great, but can you design a new one? Instantly, I was just like, absolutely. And the thing that really creeped me out that still kind of creeps me out is that it names all of its drinks. But that first one was pretty good. So I started the segment based on that, where I'll give it an ingredient or a combination of ingredients or just something weird that I wanted to play around with and just say, here's your prompt. Make the drink. I try it out, and then I grade it on a scale of one to five human skulls crushed under the boot of our robot overlords. And I got to say, there have been some hits and there have been some misses, but the more weird your prompt is, I've found, the less ChatGPT is good at it, which kind of makes sense because it just has less material to work with. Like, there are a ton of gin and chartreuse recipes out there on the internet, but the time that I asked it to make me a cocktail with Furnette Branca and pineapple rum, I'm sure there are, I'm sure the, I wouldn't be surprised if the only one of those out there on the internet is the terrible one that I had this thing made and tried that tasted like toothpaste. And I was like, you know what, I brought this on myself. We had had a couple of episodes in the can when I heard your segment the first time, and I was like, oh, this is great. You know, this is a very different approach from what we're doing, where we give very open-ended prompts. We don't spec, use this, use this, use this. And so it's really cool to see what your outcome is versus what we see here on the show. The thing that I've found is you have to kind of prod it a little bit. You have to kind of be like, okay, you know, take that one step further. So with all of that, would you like to tell us about your cocktail that you've crafted? Well, first of all, what you tasted and what the judges originally got was not the first concept that I had. The first concept that I had involved tomato syrup, fool's errand, and a whole bunch of other things that were kind of leaning into that like molecular mixology tech thing. And I just couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't find a way to like make it work because it was, the problem to me is that it was kind of diametrically opposed to the idea of the Manhattan. Because the Manhattan, one of my hot takes as a bartender is that like, I really don't like new whiskey cocktails. I'm kind of of the opinion that every whiskey cocktail that's good has kind of already been made. And that's what's kind of the beautiful simplicity of the Manhattan is it's just, you can sort of, you can operate within its boundaries, but try and change too much. And you're going against, you know, the fundamental spirit that is the Manhattan. So I kind of took a step back and I was like, okay, what can I do to put a new spin on this, but still, you know, color inside the lines, essentially. And I was like, well, you know, one of the amazing things about this city is just how many different languages and cultures and cuisines there are. I think more languages are spoken in Queens on a daily basis than anywhere else on planet Earth. Like that's wild. And it also means that there's just so much great food. And I mean, hell, even down where I live in Bay Ridge, like you want sushi, you got it. You want an awesome hamburger, you got it. You want Lebanese food, got it. Yemeni food, got it. You want a German restaurant, we got that too. Berea tacos, we got that coming all over the place. Like there's just so much stuff. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to take the fundamental building block of the Manhattan, the whiskey, and I'm going to break it down into as many parts as I can. So I took bourbon. I threw some Jamaican rum in there. I threw some aged tequila and then aged aquavit. So you've got American, Jamaican, Mexican, Scandinavian in there. Obviously just scratching the surface of some of the, you know, wide varied cultures you can find on the island of Manhattan. But I'll say this, my efforts toiling in futility with the other concept that I couldn't quite get to work were rewarded that I put all four of those together in a glass. And I kind of took a step and I was like, here goes nothing. And I was like, oh, oh, damn. Oh, that actually kind of works. Hey, look at that. One of those moments where I was just like, you know, first start, I was like, I am a genius. Well done. Well done, me. And then I threw that into a fairly simple Manhattan format. It's half an ounce of everything that I just mentioned, paired with three quarters of an ounce of red vermouth. I dialed the red vermouth back because I wanted you to be able to taste that super weird yet oddly appealing interplay of all those different flavors. And then I used some mole bitters to spice it up a little bit because New Yorkers don't agree on a lot of things. But everybody likes chocolate, except for my friend who's listening to this show, probably. So I'm saying this just to troll him. But other than you and you know who you are, every sensible person likes chocolate. So something to kind of tie all of those different, weird, varied flavors together at the end. Oh, and then I put it in a martini glass and I garnish it with an olive because why not? Because like sometimes in the city, you just see shit where you're like, that makes no sense. But OK, well, there you go. All right. So that's your take on kind of encapsulating modern Manhattan. So this is what the AI brought. All right. Very curious about this. It started with two ounces of New York bourbon, the core of our drink, it says, paying homage to tradition. And then a half an ounce of matcha green tea syrup representing the ever-growing health trend and international influences in the city. A half an ounce of rosemary infused dry vermouth capturing the urban green spaces amidst the concrete. A spritz of absinthe nudging towards the avant-garde nature of the Lower East Side garnished with a thin apple slice and a sprig of rosemary. New York state fruit and a touch of green. I'm not going to lie. That actually sounds kind of good. And they served it in a chilled coop. OK. And to your naming point, it named it the Cityscape Serenade. Oh, OK. I kind of like that. I've been calling mine famous original rays as a nod to. I love it. Yeah. As a nod to one of the many weird ubiquitous things that that is just a smashing together of different cultures and lifestyles that can really only exist in Manhattan itself. Absolutely. It goes on to say, a sip of modern Manhattan in a glass, echoing the harmonious contrasts of the city. Cheers to fresh beginnings and classic roots. I know. It always gives you a fun little sign-off at the end, too, which is just kind of like... I'm telling you, I've said this in probably every episode. I don't know if every cocktail recipe that ChatGPT gives out is ready for a menu, but damn if the writing isn't just like perfect for fluffing up a cocktail menu. Oh, yes. All right. So, the judgment. So, as I said, we did have a guest judge this go-round. I do trust fully in their judging. They use our same established rubric and everything else. And just to recap, the way we do this, we have three buckets of points. We have taste, which is a total of 50 points because ultimately we're here to drink, not to pontificate on how it looks. So, taste is 50%. But, you know, presentation does matter. So, we've got 30 points there and then originality, 20 points because let's be honest, how often are you coming up with something that is truly, truly brand new and unique? But, that's the latest at 20 points. So, totaling our 100 total. For your cocktail, taste, 43 points. Okay, sweet. I'll take that. Presentation, 16 points. Originality, 14 points. So, that puts you at a total of 73. The AI, for taste, 50 points. Presentation, 25 points. Originality, 18 points. Total, 93 points. Damn. Yeah, I was, I, I'm actually a little surprised. I was worried you were going to say that it got a perfect score on this one. No, no. But, that may be one of the higher scores we've seen. So, I will say, I do plan on having the typical judge weigh in to see how much, if any, it would have changed. But, as it is, I hate to say it, Greg, you have become a crushed skull under the boot of our AI overlord. I am officially obsolete. I will say this. I always like to read the judge's notes. So, for the AI, well, actually, I'll read the one for you first. They said that they thought it was a delicious cocktail. They would definitely drink and order a second. A couple of things they kind of expressed was, despite the creativity of the recipe, the drink didn't seem to really kind of do a new take on Manhattan. They kind of recognized that was, you know, you're kind of working within kind of the outline of an existing Manhattan cocktail. They were kind of hoping for something maybe a little more modern or nouveau for the presentation. And the garnish, they said they didn't really know that it enhanced. And that was one thing that they kind of were hoping a little more for. So, they did say that they thought it was, you know, a delicious cocktail and that seeing it as a step away from the standard Manhattan, you know, like a Manhattan 1.0, they were like, awesome. For the AI cocktail, they said they loved this cocktail. It was extremely balanced and complex. They enjoyed the hint of spice and absolutely loved the whimsical garnish as Manhattan's the big apple. So, the one knock they had was that matcha green tea syrup made it look like water out of the Hudson. I mean, it was, it's not, it has a very unique green hue to it as a cocktail. So, that was their one kind of knock on, on the presentation side of it. I'm not going to lie. If I put the drink that I came up with up against the drink the AI came up with at a cocktail competition and it was submitted by another human being, I would be like, yeah, there's actually does sound better than mine does. But, wow, to be, to be not only beaten, but like beaten pretty solidly by a robot is, I'm going to go with the word humbling because pants crappingly scary, I think it's just, it doesn't have the same brevity, you know? Right, right. Yeah. It doesn't make me sound as, you know, as grounded and down to earth as I want to appear on this podcast. Well, I will say it's very interesting because I don't change anything that the AI comes up with, right? I don't kind of sweeten it. I don't go, oh, it'd be better if we did this. I just make it as it's written. One thing that I've noted a couple of times is that to your point of like, it doesn't have taste buds. How can it, how can it know? You know, there are definitely times where I've seen it make mistakes. I think this is one where it just so happened that everything kind of came together. The rosemary I thought was kind of a weird thing in a way, but, but like both in the vermouth and as a garnish, it really kind of works. And it actually wants you to float this thin slice that you've cut out of the center of an apple and then stick the rosemary through it. So you've got a coop with an apple slice with this little bit of rosemary sticking up from the center of it. And it actually really works because it kind of primes you on the nose with this, you know, herbaceousness of the rosemary. You get a little bit of the absence from like the rinse and then, you know, you get that little bit of nose of the apple before you get the spirits themselves. That sounds amazing and charming and just like, God, we're, we're so screwed, Rob. Like God, like I'd say I'm, I'm torn between existential terror and being like, Ooh, but I'll take one of those on the way out. All right. It's time for everybody's favorite segment of the podcast. It's don't get me started. We'll recap just to make sure everyone's aware. Basically the idea is that I give our guest Greg in this case, a topic, and they have 30 seconds that they absolutely have to rail against it. Now it's also important that I note that the views reflected here are not the views of drinking with robots. They're probably not Greg's views even. So bear that in mind, Greg, don't get me started about Brooklyn. Oh my God. Yeah. Don't get me started about this place. Look, it was cool 20 years ago. Maybe see the problem with Brooklyn is that it's, it's always kind of perpetually chasing this image that it's also perpetually pricing out of wherever it is. Like Williamsburg, you kind of walk around. I was there the other day and I was like, Oh, that's that place that was featured in girls, the TV show from 15 years ago. Oh, that's the place that was featured in Broad City a decade ago. Remember when that was cool? Yeah. It's a giant fucking hotel now. See, the problem with Brooklyn is that it's just, it's, it's, it winds up eating itself. It's a self-destructive cycle of becoming cool and then becoming too cool. And then people who aren't cool with more money than the cool people move in. And eventually we're all just going to wind up in Queens or God help us Staten Island. Because I, I am on, look, I am on the very, very edge, the periphery of Brooklyn here. This is how far out to the water I have been pushed by people who can afford bigger apartments than me. All right. And I don't know where I'm going to go after this. I'm either going to have to live in a barge in the Verrazano Narrows or if I'm really unlucky Jersey, but it's, it's just, it is continuously destroying all the things that made it fun. Okay. Is that, is that time? Oh, you're well over, but I'm dying over here. Oh, God forbid Staten Island. All right. Well, Greg, I want to say thank you so much for joining us quickly. If people want to keep up with you, what's the best ways? Where can they find you these days? I'm probably most active on Instagram. That's my social media of choice because I don't know. I don't go in for angry microblogging, but everybody loves pictures. So I'm there a lot. I also have links on there to my TikTok, which I recently discovered. And I'm a aspiring geriatric TikTok star over there. My handle for Instagram is hundred proof Greg. So that's with numbers, not letters. And my TikTok handle is the same with an underscore between the numbers and the letters. But to be honest, if you just go to TikTok and you search hundred proof Greg, I'll come up. I don't know who the other guy that has hundred proof Greg without the underscore on TikTok is. Frankly, I think it might be me from an account that I made and forgot about and can't remember the password for, but either way, you'll get me. Shoot me a DM. I always love hearing from people. I always love getting in touch with folks and collaborating on cool, fun, weird stuff like getting my ass kicked by a chat bot in a bartending contest. If people want to probe you for fun cocktail ideas, you are also doing cocktail classes as well. Is that correct? That's correct. Thank you. I also host cocktail classes through Uncommon Goods. In fact, they are going to be offering the latest batch of cocktail classes through the end of the year and I think even into early 2024, as scary as that is to think about. I think those dates are going to be coming on their website very, very soon. So check it out. I do two classes with them. I host a history of gin class that I actually just did last night. It's a lot of fun. And then I do a brunch history of the Bloody Mary class that is great. And it's a super fun excuse for me to get up and do some business drinking on a Saturday or a Sunday morning. Well, that's awesome. All right. Well, thank you again so much. And to our listeners, as always, you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook threads. We're drinking with robots everywhere. And as always, be well, drink well, and we'll talk soon. you